Braking effort

[jimjam]

When I first picked-up my coupe the brakes were very scary. The pedal would either go to the floor or would be solid and provide no noticeable stopping power. When they worked you had to use Arnie levels of right-leg to get the old girl to stop!

Since then I've had my master cylinder resleeved and all new seals fitted and the servo (booster) rebuilt. We bled the system and adjusted the drums. There were no noticeable leaks. The brakes are now consistant and there is definitely some assistance but the pedal effort is still much higher than a modern car.

Is this normal?

I realise it's a difficult thing to judge but it seems to me that the servo really only makes itself felt when you really stand on the brakes.

Incidentally does anyone have a copy of the Vitesse brake upgrade article they could send to me? (email would be ideal). At some point the brakes are going to need to be upgraded as I doubt they'll stop the car when it receives the 5.1litre motor.

[glennr]

I noticed the difference with my Rover straight away compared to a modern car. The brakes are not as responsive but then technolgy has moved on. I really noticed how I had to apply more pressure but it's differences like this that make it more interesting to drive compared to my euroboxes.

[Phil Nottingham]

Whilst the brakes will not be adequate for a 5.1L powerplant they should be more than adequate and not too high a pedal effort. A firm shove should lock the wheels. In my view they are fully up to modern standards and not as spongy as some.

I think you need to recheck the system carefully

Your linings & pads may not be bedded in?
Rear cylinders not floating
Oval rear drums
duff servo - I have never had much long term success with rebuiltones
Air leaks on servo vac pipes/tank?
faulty one way valve on manifold
collapsed/ballooning flexis
restricted damaged bundy tubes

[Smallfry]

I don't understand why you are comparing it to a modern car. For a start, the disc and pad area are less than a medium sized modern, trying to pull down half as much weight again, plus an old fashioned torque converter that don't want to let go.

Then there are friction materials to consider, modern ones do not seem to have the same grab as the old fashioned asbestos types.

Also servo ratios, and, while it hasn't got anything to do with braking effort, there is a single line braking system...............scary.

[jimjam]

I was comparing it to a modern car only in terms of pedal effort and how else can I quantify it?!

I wasn't putting the Rover brakes down, I just wondered if what I was experiencing was normal. If someone had said, no they should be as sensitive as a Citroen then I would have known there was further work to be carried out. It sounds like mine are working just fine now.

Can anyone help with the Vitesse upgrade article?

I've been using the Rover for the 70kms round-trip to work over the last week or so and it's been a delight, even if the weather has been chuffing hot on occasions. Fuel economy hasn't been too bad and the car gets lots of really good attention.

I've just got to get a replacement windscreen wiper motor (proving difficult here - I could do with a trip back home and a large baggage allowance) two refurbished window regulators and some seatbelts all round. Then she'll be ready for some family motoring.

Oh, whilst I remember - is all the glass still available new? I'm sure my car should be fitted with a heated rear window (late '72, in fact the last '72 export model) but it's not and some of the glass is a bit scratched.

[p5tgc]

I would continue the upgrade of the brake system with a set of Goodgridge flexi hoses, that would at the very least ensure your whole system is fresh and capable of handling the pressures generated.

I had the same concerns a couple of years back, and by replacing the master cylinder and hoses brought the system back up to spec. Agreed the brakes are not as good as a modern car, but this is surely what one should expect after 40 years of automotive progress.

[RichardF]

Just to eloborate on Phil's list from a friend's experience not too long ago. He had placed new pads against old discs on an old Fiesta - not itself a problem. But, he hadn't noticed the ridge around the periphery of the front discs which in effect prevented the new pads laying full face against the disc. A very small chamfer on the outside edge of the pad, couple with cleaning the dics edges solved the problem. His symptoms were as you described above, so worth a shot.
Bets of luck
Richard
Southampton.

[jimjam]

I'm going to stick the car back up on the hoist tonight just to check things over ( I think I heard a squeak whilst coasting on the motorway this morning so need to check wheel bearings). I suspect the car hadn't been used much for a while when I got it and it then sat in the garage for weeks whilst we sorted the brakes. Now it's been given a good blast up and down the motorway for a week I should check everything is still in order.

When I first inspected them the discs and calipers/pads looked in good condition. I'll double check them now and check there is no scoring.

New hoses isn't a bad idea. I'll grandually work through the whole car replacing things like this but at the moment money is tight until the TVR is sold.

Can anyone help with the vitesse article and the availability of glass? Thanks.

[lagain]

When I had my car MOTd last year the tester said 'very good'
A well set up disc / drum system should be really good. Brake fluid causes deterioration to all the rubber parts which is why Rover recommended that all the rubbers were replaced every 3 years. It probably does not need doing as often as that but the rear cylinders tend to seize up fairly quickly.
Find a clear stretch of road and do some emergency stops, and examine the skid marks !
Check the pads for glazing, if they are shiny use a flat file to take the shine off, but try not to breathe in any dust ! especially if they are asbestos.

[Deleted]

Most of the braking system on my 1971 Saloon has been replaced or refurbished in recent years and I have used O/E asbestos brake pads to help preserve the original unworn discs.
I think for a 34 years old large car the brakes are more than adequate but not up to modern standards. The effort at the pedal is greater and the remote servo gives a strange feeling of hesitation before any thing seems to happen.
The rear drums are massive but the total swept area for braking is probably less than most modern cars if weight is taken into account. I also think that most of our cars do not have braking systems that are 100% efficient.
There are two dangerous aspects to the braking system which should lead any P5 driver to think about how he/she will bring the car to a halt if failure occurs.
The first is the single circuit system common to most cars of the era.
The second is the design of the master cylinder. Brake operation depends entirely on the operation of a small spring loaded washer which seals the end of the cylinder when the brakes are applied. If this washer fails, the brake fluid will shoot back up to the fluid reservoir and there will instantly be no brakes
Modern brakes have technology built into them which should allow a driver to stop the car if a part of the system fails. (Eg dual circuits)
As posted in another thread, why do we need to try to keep up with modern cars?
At the end of the day, we are driving around in beautiful old relics with cart springs and coach lines!

[Smallfry]

I cannot see how you could use a Rover Vitesse............assume you mean an SD1 ?..........brake system on a P5/B

For a start the master cylinder/ servo assembly is one piece, and is too big to fit the available space in a V8 model (don't know about a six cylinder) without major re engineering.

Also, the brake discs are smaller, and a lot deeper, so there would be no point.

Or do you mean an 800 series ? Which, while being slightly bigger, are 4 stud fixing and also deeper.

I want a tandem master cylinder and much lighter brakes with more bite and I am looking into it, and have a couple of ideas, but it has to be a reasonably and not outrageously priced solution.

[jimjam]

I've heard that there was an article written some time ago about installing Rover Vitesse discs and calipers in a P5. I think it's been mentioned on here before?

I'd be really interested in reading about it. I know the brake set-up on a Vitesse can be made to work really well and the parts (new) are relatively cheap.

[lagain]

If the braking system is well maintained there should be little worry about it failing.
If the fluid level drops in the reservoir the light should come on giving time to stop safely before all the fluid is gone. Check that this is working by removing the cap and the light should come on (make sure the handbrake is off !).
On my Stag, which has a dual system, I have fitted Goodridge Hoses, which are metal braided and look really nice and are superior to rubber .

[Phil Nottingham]

Its a good idea to replace the hoses with high perfornce type but I would never rely on the fluid cap to give an indication of the level as I have a had number of the later large type that fit the plastic see through reservoir stick "off". The earlier type never seem to give this problem but the holding ring dissolves in the winter salt!

Its apity the brakes are not dual line but that's why I alwys make sure the handbrake is working at full efficioency as these cars are almost impossible to stop without brakes because of the auto box

[Deleted]

The action of the cork bobbin in the brake reservoir is ok for warning of a gradual leakage lagain, but if you reread my posting, I was referring to a sudden catastrophic failure of the two items I mentioned.
Yes, a well maintained system is likely to be ok but it is the lack of any back up system which is a cause for concern.

[dorsetflyer]

Which means if your brakes fail you the only way of stopping is by means of the handbrake. This at its best, it is very efficient.

[Deleted]

True but any visitor to this site will soon realise that excellent handbrakes are not that common and how many owners regularly grease and check on the weak part of the set up,the cable from the scuttle to the linkage? The linkage is strong but a chain is only as strong as etc etc........
I wouldn't like to have to rely on a handbrake to pull me up from speed or on a slope.
Best to keep speeds sensible and try not to take on modern cars. Just pretend you haven't got any brakes at all and drive accordingly.
A brakeless P5 running at speed into another car would result in carnage and possibly deaths.

[PatMcCoy]

?
I many years ago drove a new car ,well 6 months old in fact
and the brakes failed
And year or two ago i drove a mates car and the engine cut out,again a car under a year old and the brakes failed and the power steering didn't work either
Just because its 30-40 years old ,as long as its look after it should drive as good as any car out there

[Phil Nottingham]

I think that is the whole point what I have been trying to say - I always have said that just because its an old car with a notorious weak handbrake, that caused soley by bad maintenance/interference by someone who does not what they are doing, there is no reason why the brakes should not be entirely adequate and 2nd best should not be accepted.

In many cases its because some owners are not prepared to spend the money, which on safetly critical items like brakes & steering is dangerous to all road users and gives classic car owners a perception to those unfortunates who spend endless amounts of money on new or slightly used cars, that we are running unroadworthy old bangers.

[Deleted]

Points taken. It's just the lack of any braking back up to such a heavy vehicle which is the main concern to me.

[stantondavies]

I have suffered brake failure stopping at a T-junction. Fortunately I managed to stop on the handbrake alone even in the heavier 3litre - though I did lockdown the gearbox for good measure; not convinced it did much. The cause was a perforated steel brake pipe on which, even when off the car, it was impossible to see the hole. Indeed, all the pipework looked fine but got replaced with copper piping double quick.
Do not be too complacent with a just visual check, if there are any problems or doubts - RENEW.

[Deleted]

Just to clarify here, didn't the last off the line P5B's have dual circuit brakes?
I will check the '73 Coupe when I'm next over, I'm sure it has. Though if it has, it will probably be front/rear split.

[Deleted]

If the last off the line car had dual circuit brakes, what hope for the older cars?

The BEST handbrakes I've ever experienced were Citroen Dyane and Citroen BX and Xantia, (and probably lots of other Citroens too). They worked on the front brakes via cables and you could really feel the braking effect - brilliant!
The Dyane would almost stand on its nose!

Freddy

[Phil Nottingham]

That is something new - perhaps it was to special order as dual circuit brakes were not common then especially with bankrupt BL with obsolete models

My P2 has mechanical brakes which are as good as modern hydraulics in my view - its the tyres and linings (they fade and smoke downhills!) that let it down

[Deleted]

Possible that my 1973 Coupe has got a special order brake system:- it was supplied RHD but with a KPH speedo for the first owners European sojourns to I understand, Switzerland. However, the BL issue could work both ways:- Jaguar had dual circuit brakes (albeit with in-line servos ) on the XJ6/12 so maybe there was some parts bin modifications to be had on the line? Anyway, I'll take a look Saturday, maybe a possibility to modify an earlier car here. The '73 is never going back on the road so is earmarked for spares anyway (terminal rot) but I just can't bring myself to do it yet.

Re the Xantia handbrake:- this was NOTORIOUS for not working as a parking brake, a recall was made on at least one occasion by Citroen. Front wheel parking brakes were a SAAB tradition as well I beleive.

Maybe go everywhere backwards with the P5's, just in case ;D