Drivetrain failure

[roedmose]

Last year in August I had an auto box failure, for which I needed some help from the list. Car was in pretty good original shape, but I ended up buying a used BW65 box that I was told was recently rebuilt. As it is next to impossible to find someone skilled in old auto boxes here in DK, I bought this as the price was very attractive. Installed the box from inside the car, and I had to take it in/out 5 times before it went in ok.

To my frustration the shifting was very hard even with the cable very slack, so either the box was not rebuilt or rebuilt badly.
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Starting in 2. and shifting manually to D when speed was reached made it driveable so I decided to test-drive at the end of last year (some 200 miles) and drive it while considering my options. However I did buy a complete P6 engine/box unit from an abandoned project.
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This year we opened the season with small runs and eventually yesterday we wanted a longer trip of 200 miles in one go.
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However at halfway smoke started to emerge as oil poured out over the exhaust, and it turned out that both engine oil and autobox oil is pouring out of the unit. Difficult to see exactly where, as everything is fouled up in oil, but it seems to bee where the engine meets the gearbox. I suppose it can be the rear shaft seal but how on earth can the gearbox start leaking at the front end at the same time? I used approx 3 litre engine oil and 2 litre auto fluid to take the car the last 50 miles home.
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So here I am at the start of the season with a non-runner.

The plan is now firstly to understand what has happened, and I assume this will conclude that the drive unit has to come out.
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I have this P6 unit standing that has not been started for some 15 years, and I really want to avoid installing it just to see it is no good. I assume a good procedure will be to :

1) Do a compression test on the old engine before it is taken out to understand the condition.

2) Do an outside cleaning on the spare engine unit.
3) Take off the valve covers and check/clean it for sludge.
4) Heat the oil pan with a small electrical hot plate and drain the oil.
5) Install new filter and engine-oil
6) Oil the valves and cams and re-install valve covers.
7) Check ignition timing and hook up a battery and an oil-pressure gauge (preferable the one in the car to be able to compare the readings with what I normal see.
8) Test the compression
9) Hook up a radiator and water and start up the engine. The auto box is planned to be left undisturbed for now. I plan to let it run for an hour several times to be sure it is 'oil-tight' !

?) Is there any way to test the auto box 'on the ground' ?

10) If decided it will go into the car, this will be the time to drain the auto box together with the engine oil, to be able to tilt the engine into place !


Is this a good procedure or have I missed something ?

And ANY hint to why I have a leak for both engine and autobox oil at the same time would be welcome !!



Many regards
Frank, Denmark

[harvey]

Personally I'd investigate the engine/box you've got in the car before I changed it for another unit of unknown condition.
Engine wise I'd clean out the breathing system, replace the flame traps and breather filter, then powerwash the engine clean, then run it to see if you've cured the leaks or if not where they're coming from.
The leak on the gearbox is probably the front pump seal, more than likely damaged by taking the box in and out 5 times.
There is no certain way of testing an autobox out of the car. (I would clarify that by saying that some specialists have equipment that can run up and test them on the bench, but not many)

[Deleted]

Roedmose, all i can think is that you have a broken crank shaft that is still engaging. This could cause simultaneous oil leaks. I had an Austin A40 Somerset that broke a shaft that way.

[Phil Nottingham]

Sounds disastrous - I am sure if crankshaaft had broken there would be othe symptoms? i have never heard of one going either.

Leaky rear engine seal is very common - even if its not cranbkcase pressure - this should be easy to check (causes other than blocked breathers, head gasket and pistion ring(s)- in that order) - the rope type seal which yours probably is may have dired out whlist standing - if so it may just improve.

As to the gear box it may be running at high pressure or the TC shaft seal was damaged refitting it last time.

Gearbox rebuliders test them off teh car but I have doen this

[harvey]

I've had one V8 with a broken crank, and you certainly hear all about it! Talk about starting with the easy things first!
Worn main bearing shells can also cause the rear main seal to leak.

[Deleted]

It just seems impossible to get both oil leaks at the same time. Especially that much oil. Is it possible to loose that much oil with a blocked crank case breather? Jammed oil relief valve perhaps, in conjunction with a worn rope seal?l

[harvey]

I had an SD1 V8 come in, the owner having put 5 Litres of oil in to travel 85 miles,a lot of it forced out through the lip type rear main seal, and I cured that purely by cleaning out the breathing system, and replacing the flametrap and breather filter.

[roedmose]

As work is getting more and more demanding these days, I am constantly in lack of time !!
I have started out cleaning the donor engine-unit. A lot of sludge in the valve compartment, but that must be normal. I take out the worst with a brush and a vacuum cleaner; assume the rest will end in the pan and frequent oil+filterchange in the start will 'solve' that.
- What worse is that the rocker assembly was missig in both sides. Called the seller and he remembered transplanting it into another car many years ago because it was not worn. - Could be a good sign. i will have to reuse that from my old engine if I decide to use the donor-unit.
At the end of the week I will have reached a point where I can turn to the engine in the car and measure compression and take a look at the breathing system.
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I assume I will update at the end of the week with my findings !

Thanks
Frank, DK

PS Anybody coming to Scandinavia this year ?

[Phil Nottingham]

Good luck then - I hope some of the flaky black bits do not block up vital oil ways on their way down to the sump

[Deleted]

I dont like the sound of that sludge. It usually means that there are too many miles. At this stage you should remove the manifold and tray in order to inspect the camshaft. Out of the five donor engines that i have bought, every one was too far gone with worn camshaft. Even on a CLEAN engine.

[roedmose]

Getting more frustrated. Tried the compression on the spare engine. Was only 2 Kgf/cm2 and I was ready to render it to scrap as I realized that as it has no rockers it will not get any air to compress. So that measurement will have to wait..
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Then I measured on the car and the compression varies between 7.8 - 8.5 and giving the meter is not that good etc, I would think that would be ok. Looked at the flame traps and tubes and everything is clear - no problem.
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Took the car for a 20 miles ride - no major oil leaks, but perhaps a trace of autofluid at the front of the box, but nothing alarming. This is getting quite irritating - I am glad it is raining !!!

[Deleted]

I am getting 9.5 on a low compression engine. (hot) with all the plugs out. I just did a check because of an oiled up #7 plug.

[roedmose]

Drivetrain is now safely on the floor. Separated engine from autobox and the rear end of the engine seems oily, though not as bad as I had assumed ! I have not decided yet if the spareengine will go in, or a short block will be acquired.
See picture of rear end of engine :

i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/roedmose/100_0739.jpg

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Took the botton of the box. The story is that the original box gave up last year and I found a recently overhauled 303-box and installed. And this have now given up on the first longer run. Right from the first day, the 303 box was a disappointment as it shifted hard and to far up, even with kickdown cable completely slack. The 303 has a metal stop on the cable as a "stop-indicator".
The diagnose was to high internal pressure and this can have led to the oil been blow out all over the place !
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Now the surprises inside :

1) The rear servo is cracked at its seat !
See

i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/roedmose/100_0741x.jpg

2) The axle at the rear servo has worked its way into the housing. How this axle should be held in position, I dont know. It can be wrongly seated at the last repair.

See

i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/roedmose/100_0742x.jpg

3) The kickdown cable is special for the 303-box. However when it is slack, the cam is not at its resting position. Should this be the case ?? Anybody knows ? Is the cam wrong or the cable modified or ?? If the cam will not release totally, this could explain why the pressure has been to high

See

i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/roedmose/100_0743x.jpg
and

i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/roedmose/100_0744x.jpg

Any input strongle welcome !

Thanks
Frank, Denmark

[harvey]

Hi there,I'll try to answer in the order you ask,

Pic 1, normally the servo falls off when the bolts work loose, but it may have cracked before the bolts fell out if the bolts were loose allowing it to try and move backwards and forwards, either way it needs changing now.

Pic 2,the only thing that holds the pivot pin is the spring, so if it's worn into the casing it wasn't fitted in the right place (ie too far that way)

Pic 3,you need to cut the crimp off the cable, then adjust it so the back edge of the cam sits at the position you have it in pic 4, this really means setting it with the sump off when the gearbox is in the car with the linkage connected. Set as it was no wonder the pressures were high.(Possibly so high as to engage with such force that it cracked the servo)

This is proof that buying secondhand autoboxes off the floor is more trouble than it's worth. Not a very good recon(?) either if what you've shown so far is anything to go by. Basic mistakes made by someone who hasn't got a clue what they're doing.

Have you moved the valve block? It's difficult to see but it looks like the shift lever is not engaged with the valve. And have you removed the filter, if so why, if not it's missing.

As for the oil leaks around the rear of the engine it doesn't look to be anything that won't be curable by cleaning out the breathing system.

[roedmose]

Thanks for the reply. I have blown 2 autoboxes now and both were rebuild by proffesionals shortly (in miles) before. The problem seems to be that we have very few cars with autotransmission here in DK, and though the rebuild of these boxes are very expensive and at the same time bad !!
In both cases I am glad, that I have not paid the rebuild price...
I think that the 303 box on the picture is going to be retired, as I think is is brought together frome several boxes of different type. I am pretty sure tha cam is wrong, meaing that the valve block is probably from an older type.
And, yes, I did remove the valve block and the filter as I did a air pressure test on the box...

I still have one used autobox that I will try out when I have rebuild the engine. If that is no good eigther, I think it will be time to see if Ryan Air accepts an autobox as handluggage ;D

I would prefer a newly rebuild box, but not from a danish refurbisher. I see that JRW have some at a good price so that might be the answer if the last box fails as well....
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Concerning the engine, the breathing systems seems in perfect shape, but I noticed that there was a lack of coolant, but the level was perfect before that last fatal ride. I think the engine is just tired and has blown a headgasket as well. Further investigations will be made shortly...

thanks
Frank
Thanks
Frank

[harvey]

If you think JRW gearboxes are a good price, I would suggest you do a bit more research before you buy. Plus he insists on a surcharge which I'm sure he does everything possible to hang on to.
Personally I would rebuild the 303 box, and if you ever get it to the UK I can put you in touch with someone who can do it for you. (And properly.)

[roedmose]

Hi Harvey !

That will be strongly considered. Please, give me some more information at [e-mail]

Thanks a lot !

Frank

[Phil Nottingham]

I have never rebuilt a box before but have refitted broken bits. I have had one prfessionally recondidtioned - it lasted less than 35k miles. I am now using a Wadhams box being the 303 from mine reconditoined =- its done 18K miles now in 3 years and seemOK so far

[Roy of the Rovers]

Frank, there is a Gearbox reconditionling business just down the road from where I live. Its been there for years and the previous local club rep had his BW35 gearbox rebuilt there 10 years or more ago without problems. I've discussed the 4 speed zf box with them in the past and they really seem to know what they are talking about.

Here is the website and Hove isn't that far from the channel tunnel!
www.automaticgearboxcentre.co.uk/index.html

[harvey]

royfellingham said:

Frank, there is a Gearbox reconditionling business just down the road from where I live. Its been there for years and the previous local club rep had his BW35 gearbox rebuilt there 10 years or more ago without problems.

I know problems can occur, but that's no more than I would expect if the vehicle is well maintained and in fairly regular use.
When I was working on the cars, some over many years of doing 10 to 12k miles a year, if I did a box it was guaranteed for 1 year or 12k miles, but I never expected them to have a problem again.If they did I would have been disappointed, but I don't ever remember doing one twice.

[roedmose]

Thanks for the replies on this. One of the problems with classical vehicle is the little milage that these normally cover, concerning warranty issues. One year warranty is in my case only 3000 miles. Therefore I visited 2 local autobox reconditioning shops here to get an imression if I could trust them . And joining what I saw with my experience of 2 rebuild boxes from other Danish shops, has made me decide not to get it done here.
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But first things first. I have started out preparing to rebuild a suitable engine from scratch. I will keep the thread updated as I progress.

[roedmose]

I have dismantled what was supposed to be the donor-engine, but though a lot of sludge was found beneath the intake-manifold, the first big-ends looks in perfect condition and the cam-shaft is also spot-less. Wil continue taking out the shaft and look at the main-bearings, but it seems that this engine will be the one to use. Will measure the tolerance in the bearings with plasticgauge and react accordingly, and strip the block totally for a good cleaning. When I put it together again I have an ambition about making it tight for oil !! ;D
It is the late block with a proper seal at the shaft-ends.
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Any hints of which compound to use (if any) on the new gaskets or else where to avoid oil on my floor ?? Also it is stated clearly in the WS-manual to use 3M EC776 on head- and waterpump bolts. On dismantling that compound was on the headbolts as these came free with no problem and was still coated, but the waterpump must have been renewed at some point without this, as several bolts snapped. The compound, I believe, coats the bolt avoiding the contact between the metal-faces, thus preventing corrosion and therefor seizing.
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I have difficulties tracking that compound here, are there any alternatives or any hints ?

Frank, DK

[bigandy]

very much good luck

andy

[roedmose]

I have a quantity of parts to choose between in building a 'new' engine. I have a very good crankshaft from a P6 without the sealring and a fine clean SD1 block using the seal. Though the older shaft has a oil-reflector to keep oil away from the rope-seal, there is still casted a 'compartment' for that reflector in the newer SD1 block.
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Will there be any problems in using the old type crankshaft in the newer block ?

Frank, DK

[harvey]

The early blocks can be modified to take the lip seal by machining to fit the seal, and as far as I'm aware this doesn't involve changing the crank. What I do seem to remember though is that where the rope seal runs on its land on the early crank there are marks machined in, presumably to allow a minute amount of oil to be there and stop the rope seal burning out. You would need to ensure the lip seal is not running on this area.