ignition/starter motor

[Gianni]

just got my P5B coupe back on the road and going great guns after putting a supra 5 speed in and retrimming the interior, when after showing it off to a friend, went to start it and the starter motor wouldn't disengage, even after truning off the key and even withdrawing the key! Had to disconnect the battery, leave the car and am returning there this morning without any real idea of what to do. I guess the switch may be a problem or the starter motor or it's relay. Any ideas? Can someone tell me where to find the relay?
Gianni

[Phil Nottingham]

;D

Welcome to the forum

As its a pre-engaged starte rmotor the relay is carried on the back of the motor and it does sound like its failed. They are replaceable after removing the entire motor. Standard Lucas so I am sure you can source locally

Its low down under the steering box on the LHS (looking from front) Its a tight squeeze getting out and back in again

If you are lucky it may just be fused ignition switch but I doubt it

[Gianni]

many thanks for that reply
went back to the car this morning (first night out over night!) replaced the ignition switch that I too hastily removed, looked under the car and found a lead off the solenoid, two empty spades, tried one and it still started, tried the other and bingo, fixed! I can't really believe it though. Maybe I dislodged the wire with my fumbling in the dark last night, and somehow the relay has got the message by being left out overnight and decided to work this am!
Still can't easily find the relay itself but will try again with your helpful directions. Thanks again. Gianni

[Phil Nottingham]

The solenoid is the starter relay - there is a separate ignition relay to protect the gearbox inhibitor switch Lucas 6RA at RHS of the heater unit shelf.

The ignition switch carries the entire load apart from the alternator field windings which also go via a 6RA relay next to the fuse box

[Gianni]

Now that is interesting!
The night before I had been spraying lots of penetrating stuff around the heater controls (jammed), maybe I soaked the relay in the process? maybe it just dried out ovenight? could something like that happen?
With the auto gone maybe I need to reconsider the wiring with expert help as the residual inhibotr swtich may cause me trouble perhaps.

[Phil Nottingham]

The relay is sealed although the terminal/cables are exposed. This would not cause the starter motor to run on but it does look as if your wiring needs attention.

Is it the old fabric covered stuff (with PVC and fabric cables inside) or the later and safer now, 100% PVC cables with black loom tape wrap?

[Smallfry]

Ah now......I had this problem with one of my other vehicles.

If you put a live feed onto the terminal that bypasses the ballast resistor on Lucas pre engaged starters, I am sure the starter will not disengage. This is probably what you did by mistake.

It would be interesting to confirm this, but I am not sure if it will B****r up the starter, so while I wouldn't want to try it myself, maybe you would like to try it and let us know.......hee hee hee !

[Phil Nottingham]

I agree that would cause the motor to continue running

[Gianni]

thanks again for your suggestions
I have the newer black loom tape wrap (I think) but in places the wiring looks very old and faded. It hasn't happened again over the last few days but I am a bit wary of going too far in case it happens again. I may have to pull the starter motor out to effect a definitive repair.

[johnbirmingham]

Do let us know how you get on removing the starter , Gianni . I took a look at the job and chickened out ! The usual suspect (inhibiter switch) for non churning proved blameless in my case and the "click"louder and lower down, so I suspect my solenoid or brushes .Touch wood,it's only happened twice so far and has eventuxlly responded to repeated turns of the key. It's never been touched since new so I must be on borrowed time ! Best of luck , John.

[Phil Nottingham]

Its not too much of a big job to get the starter out its only held with two 1/2" AF setscrews with slots cut in for easy installation. You need a long socket extension bar preferably with "wobble" end

[keith]

johnbirmingham said:

Do let us know how you get on removing the starter , Gianni . I took a look at the job and chickened out ! The usual suspect (inhibiter switch) for non churning proved blameless in my case and the "click"louder and lower down, so I suspect my solenoid or brushes .Touch wood,it's only happened twice so far and has eventuxlly responded to repeated turns of the key. It's never been touched since new so I must be on borrowed time ! Best of luck , John.

I had the same problem with my saloon. It turned out that water had gotten into the starter solenoid and corroded the contacts to such an extent that they would not make a reliable connection. Removing the switch and polishing the copper contacts until they were nice and pink resolved the problem completely.

[Deleted]

I reckon my starter could so with replacing - I'm sure someone said in this chain that it's standard Lucas and should be avaliable locally. Whereabouts? Would I be able to get one through Halfords, a Rover spares place ... still finding my feet at getting bits!

[dorsetflyer]

It is a Lucas item, and there are several alternative ways of getting an exchange.

1. JR Wadhams sells them, I think on an exchange basis.

2. See if there is a Lucas agent locally. They are now known
as LS UK.

3. Find a specialist locally who can either sevice it or do an
exchange.

I doubt if you'll have any success using Halfords, but could try a Landrover dealer, he might be able to help.

If at all possible try and get the starter motor for a Morgan 4 plus 4, although they are the same fitting etc they are shorter and so are much easier to remove and fit than the OE version.

[Deleted]

As with all things about classic cars, a simple job like finding a Starter Motor, advertised in several places, is proving difficult to find.
One of our specialist suppliers, said he had a new motor in stock, promised to call me back on Thursday so that I could piuck it up at the weekend. Didn't call back, and then didn't answer his phone Friday or Saturday. Wadhams and Roverpart only sell reconditioned units (which I will have to go with if I can't find a new one). Lucas or LS are not on the net, and I can't seem to find an agent locally.
Ah the joys of classic motoring! On the bright side the Rover is running very nicely at the moment, it seems to like the warmer weather.

Does anyone have the part (or parts) numbers to hand for a starter motor for a P5B - I will try some MG parts places, they have been good for bits for the Buick engine in the past!

Thanks

[Phil Nottingham]

There is nothing wrong with recon items - or get one from David Green so that you have a spare. They do soemtimes appear on Ebay


There two types depending on the coil ballast shunt arrangements (on the solenoid itself) but the Rover part numbers which are not really much use are 559382 and 568240

[johnbirmingham]

Phil,I thought you were pulling my leg re."wobble end",I'd never heard of them,but an idle brouse through the Machine Mart cat. revealed a set of wobble bars (how could I ever have doubted the Word of God).Thus armed, I did manage to extract the starter but it was still far from easy.My soenoid needed two blobs of unsoldering as well as the two screws to open it.Unlike Keith's,mine was well oily and pitted.A good clean up and filing FLAT as well as shiney did the trick.It's worth noting that the solder used was of a higher melting point than the usual electrical stuff-they must have expected the wires to get hot ! The wole job took all day but the peace of mind was worth it and as a bonus the starter whizzed over as if it had a new battery.Incidentally,the brushes were fine after 34 yrs. and 150,000 miles. John.

[Phil Nottingham]

I never said it was easy!


I have done it without wobble bars using a long screw driver in the slots so thoughtfully put across the bolt heads by Rover

[DanielSheard]

I took the starter out when the radiator was out - you can then get at the bolts using a long extension. But I though it was difficult then, so what its like with the rad in place I don't know.

[Deleted]

Has anyone tried one of these new Gear Drive lightweight high torque starter motors? Advertised by a few sources such as SC parts, for V8 rover powered vehicles?

We use this type here at work, lighter and take less current out of the battery, brilliant starter motors.

Adrian

[Deleted]

Freddy,

Do you have a number or a web-site for the lightweight starter motors? Mine has got to be replaced, so I may well try one!

Cheers
Alistair

[Deleted]

Try Luke Motorsport for the gear-drive starter motors.

Visit lukemotorsport.co.uk/lukemotorsportuk.html
They offer new alternators, distributors and electric fans too!


I might try one too! Saves on battery drain.

Cheers

[jlalexander]

Moss Europe supplies a Nippon Denso starter for the V8
www.v8register.net/subpages/V8nippondensostarter.htm

[dorsetflyer]

A direct replacement starter motor for our P5B's comes from a Morgan plus four V8. The beauty of this one is it is shorter in length and therefore much easier to remove or re-fit.

[bogbasic]

Hello, recon items seem to be fine. Just fitted one a couple of weeks ago, its much smaller than the original, so much easier to fit and turns the engine faster giving a much better start. My local spares shot had one on the shelves! They keep them for trikers, allegedly.