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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2008 14:29:28 GMT
The problem:- Battery overflowing and, making a bit of a mess of the battery tray. The cure:- As yet, unknown. What done so far:- 3 independant people - the last an auto electrician - all say the same; the alternator is charging properly, the regulator is working and, the battery is fine ! If anyone has any ideas on how to solve this problem, I would love to hear from you ! Kind Regards, John A.  |
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Post by dorsetflyer on Jun 10, 2008 15:21:08 GMT
That points to two things ;- 1. The electrolyte in the battery itself is too high, or 2. the charging rate is making the electrolyte expand and overflow.
If the battery is the type where there are individual caps to fill up with distilled water then the level is too high.
I must admit I won't fit one where there are individual caps I go for the sealed for life style.
It could be a faulty battery, but I cannot remember this sort of problem in over fifty years of driving.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 10, 2008 16:06:53 GMT
Like John says it's an odd one  For the battery to get to the point of the electrolite expanding it must be charging at a high rate if this is so it will be warm? is it? the plates should just be covered are they? how many volts are accross the battery terminals when the engine is running at 2000 rpm? |
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jun 10, 2008 16:23:58 GMT
It sounds highly dangerous - if you are certain the charging circuit is OK and the all battery/egine earths are good (corroded rear chassis leg!!) then try another battery ior at least have it tested.
What does the ammeter say
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Post by Warwick (Ozcoupe) on Jun 11, 2008 0:27:54 GMT
As Phil says, what is the ammeter reading John A? Despite what the auto-elec said, it certainly sounds like over-charging which points to a faulty regulator. Does the charge (ammeter reading) taper off after you have been driving for a bit?
The charge going into the battery (current, amps) should be reasonably high at first as the alternator replaces the charge that the starter motor took from the battery. If the regulator is working properly, it should gradually cut back the current as the battery comes up to fully charged again and you will see the ammeter reading settle back to just above zero. If the reading stays high, the regulator is faulty and the battery will be over charged. The water in the electrolyte (diluted sulphuric acid) gets broken into hydrogen and oxygen and the vigorous bubbling out of the gases causes the volume of liquid to expand and it overflows.
But if it's not that ... Did you by any chance top up the battery before this first happened? And did you fill it up again after it overflowed?
A flat battery should never be topped up before recharging except to ensure that the plates are not exposed. The process of charging increases the volume of the acid due to the chemical changes taking place. Therefore, if a battery is flat and you fill it up before recharging, it will overflow. Always check the level when it is charged, not when flat.
If you haven't already done so, throughly clean the area around the battery box and don't forget under the car where it would have drained out. Make up a strong mixture of water and bi-carb soda and liberally slosh it around. A bit of left-over residue hiding in a body seam or under a bolt-head could make a nasty hole months down the track. Much better to have to dry out the boot after using water and bi-carb than to have a small amount of unneutralized acid hiding somewhere.
If you are in a situation where you need to leave the battery there and use the car while attempting to solve the problem (not recommended but sometimes unavoidable) get a square of heavy plastic such as builders' black polyethylene sheet used under concrete, and line the battery box so any spill is trapped. Just be careful getting it out again.
And WEAR SAFETY GLASSES whenever working with batteries. It doesn't take much to lose your eyesight. This includes wearing specs when looking into a cell to see the level.
Once the problem has been sorted out and if the same battery is retained, get the density of the acid checked with a hydrometer. If you have lost a lot of acid and it has been replaced by water you will need to have some of the acid replaced.
Good luck,
Warwick.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2008 17:41:42 GMT
Respect and, thanks, to all who have replied. We are, it seems, agreed that, if the battery is OK, then the problem is somewhere in the regulation chain. The ammeter does exactly as it should - thanks OzCoupe. The electrolyte covers the plates and, is below the 'max fill' mark; as such, no need to add distilled water. If the battery was of the 'sealed for life' type, I suspect that this sort of problem would be a problem to the battery ! As it is, mine has a small vent pipe, near the Negative terminal so, I have plumbed in an overflow pipe that will allow excess fluid to drain/vent, to atmo'. The battery Supplier has already changed the battery and, as such, I want to check out the other options before going back ! Another off-line source has suggested the 3 components sited around the regulator as, if one or more is duff, then the regulator could be prevented from 'regulating' i.e. the supply of electricity is still flowing, when it should have been stopped ! I'm going 'off-line' for the next week or, so but, will keep you posted on progress. Thanks again for all of the suggestions - wished some of you lived nearer !! Kind Regards, John A.  |
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 11, 2008 17:54:18 GMT
John check the voltage at the battery when charging and post the info this after 10mins of running at 2k to 3k RPM. |
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jun 11, 2008 19:04:55 GMT
If yours is a 3 litre there is only one regulator and perhaps 1 radio suppressor capacitor Such reggulator needs careful setting up and younger auto electricians will not know the correct procedure which has to be followed to letter and in correct order
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 11, 2008 20:29:11 GMT
If yours is a 3 litre there is only one regulator and perhaps 1 radio suppressor capacitor Such reggulator needs careful setting up and younger auto electricians will not know the correct procedure which has to be followed to letter and in correct order This is what I was trying to get to Phil if after 10 mins of charging it's still producing 14.7v ish with no drop it should give us a clue  |
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jun 11, 2008 21:18:40 GMT
14.7v with a dynamo is actually a little on the low side - there may be wiring faults or its the regulator. The wiring will be old as will all the various connectors. Indescriminate tampering with the regulator just will not work.
Some modern batteries will not tolerate dynamo systems although I use calcium semi-sealed on boteh my P2 and 3 litre without any problems and certainly no excessive gassing.
The P4 is also quite happy with its dynamo system and antiquated wiring.
You need the w/s manual and someone with auto-electrics knowlege of systems that disppeared from all new cars 35 years ago!
Can you let us kmow teh actaul model an dyear of you P5 and whether it has been modified and when this trouble started.
If it has an alternator I would beinterested to hear hwo they got round the power sterring pump drive.
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Post by Warwick (Ozcoupe) on Jun 12, 2008 0:06:54 GMT
If the voltage readings don't show up anything conclusive and the problem persists without the cause being found, it's worth hooking up a temporary voltmeter somewhere visible. Run a pair of wires through from the battery. If you have a multimeter, sit it on the console where you can keep an eye on it while you are driving. If you don't have one; it's worth getting one. A digital meter is very handy for work like this as it is clear and easy to read, but an old analogue meter will often do a better job as it is a "real" meter - no internal electronics trying to interpret things; just a steady reading. The wires don't need to be very heavy as the current the meter needs is very small, however it's a fair distance so you don't want voltage drop either.
Knowing what the ammeter and voltmeter do during normal driving may provide a clue. Perhaps the regulator has an intermittent fault - sticking contacts or something.
Or perhaps the system needs a recharge with Lucas smoke.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 12, 2008 5:46:19 GMT
Tooo many unknown here me thinks  14.7v-15v max is ok for an alternator on a battery needing some charge, but a dynamo with the old type regulator badly adjusted or faulty! can go way above up to 20v ish I think John A we need some info you stated it was an Alternator in your first posting I would have thought your three independent guys would know the difference |
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Post by Warwick (Ozcoupe) on Jun 12, 2008 6:28:25 GMT
Looks like we will need to wait a couple of weeks until John A. comes back.
Does anyone make an electronic replacement for mechanical regulators for generators?
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 12, 2008 12:14:37 GMT
?? |
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jun 12, 2008 18:36:22 GMT
There used to be versions - but now modern altnators are fitted inside dynamos - the P5 Dynamo has a special armature though to give engage into the power steering pump drive shaft (as with PrincessR/Westminsters)
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Post by Warwick (Ozcoupe) on Jun 13, 2008 1:01:14 GMT
?? Sorry John ... down here a DC unit on a car is called a generator. A dynamo is one of those things that used to run on the front tyre of your bicycle to power the headlight. Phil, are you saying that people are building alternators inside the case of a generator dynamo for old cars? |
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jun 13, 2008 17:23:10 GMT
Yes - I will find the link. They are easily obtainable over here at a price!
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Post by p5tgc on Jun 13, 2008 20:01:44 GMT
For the sake of clarity, John's car is a P5B with an 11AC alternator fitted.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jun 13, 2008 21:23:26 GMT
Its in the wrong section then!
Most likely its the 4TR (the red or black square box) - these are still readily available new from the specialists and at autojumbles new and s/h for a lot less.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jun 13, 2008 22:45:07 GMT
Since someone did ask - its done
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2008 15:40:24 GMT
 Here we are again ! Finished our running around and, harvesting of the lawn ! Thanks to the 'Events Sec.' for the SARR for advising car and, charger ! Without being able to put my finger on it, as they say, felt that something was 'missing'. We did the NTPR in North Wales without further bother BUT, prior to that had 'looked at' the situation and came up with a 'what if'. The battery has a vent; first time I have seen one but, in flicking through the manual, read that to remove the battery, one should remove the drain pipe that goes through the floor, under the battery. As I did not have one, I made one ! My 'what if', is that IF the electrolyte is over the plates and, below the 'max' mark, is it possible - as intimated earlier, that the 'excess' has been 'blown off' - on the basis that everything seems to be doing what it should ? I shall continue to monitor and, armed with a copy of all of your help, will work my way through the various points put forward. A big thanks to you all - am hoping to be at the 'National' if anyone wants to say 'hello'. Kind Regards, John A.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2008 13:48:31 GMT
Hi all, 'Tis I once more ! They say that patience is a virtue and, in this case, it worked ! The problem has, at last, been traced to an intermittent fault on the Regulator ! With another one fitted, no more 'boiling battery' ! Many thanks once again for all of your help. Kind Regards, John A.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Sept 2, 2008 16:19:25 GMT
So I was correct! They can last years or fail quickly its best to keep one as spare
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14.7v-15v max is ok for an alternator on a battery needing some charge, but a dynamo with the old type regulator badly adjusted or faulty! can go way above up to 20v ish
Here we are again ! Finished our running around and, harvesting of the lawn !