|
|
Post by glennr on May 16, 2010 11:28:40 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Phil Nottingham on May 16, 2010 14:35:39 GMT
A good quality 20/50 but only leave this in for 500 miles if engine has been reconditioned
|
|
|
|
Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 17, 2010 7:38:12 GMT
A good quality 20/50 but only leave this in for 500 miles if engine has been reconditioned Good Advice  The main thing is not to use any fancy oils with all the additives you have to bed the rings into the bore so as Phil says a good quality NONE ADDITIVE 20/50 which should be no problem to find in France  and do the oil change as Phil's recommendation This advice is only good if the engine has been re-bored  I use a basic 20/50 oil from Witham Oil and Paint! in my car which I buy in 25Lt drums they sell Classic Oils of various types I change my oil every 6 months or 1000 miles for the price of the oil it would be silly to suffer sludge (the price of 3 gallons of petrol)! www.withamgroup.co.uk/default.asp?page=378 |
|
|
|
Post by enigmas on May 17, 2010 22:44:01 GMT
Hey guys, these are all flat tappet engines and if reconditioned require ZDDP (refer to sticky "Oils ain't Oils". Without this additive the camshaft will chop out very quickly.
Most engine oils today are designed for modern engines (overhead camshafts) so old familar products used since the sixties are not what they used to be.
The compounds comprising ZDDP are no longer used in EFI ECM controlled engines due the the negative effects on the oxygen sensors and other related 'stuff' in controlling emissions.
My recommendation is Penrite Classic Light. (Noting use of ZDDP on the label)
If you can't find an appropriate product a diesel spec oil should be fine as these engines are all flat tappet. ~ Vince
|
|
|
|
Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 18, 2010 5:55:57 GMT
Hey guys, these are all flat tappet engines and if reconditioned require ZDDP (refer to sticky "Oils ain't Oils". Without this additive the camshaft will chop out very quickly. Most engine oils today are designed for modern engines (overhead camshafts) so old familar products used since the sixties are not what they used to be. The compounds comprising ZDDP are no longer used in EFI ECM controlled engines due the the negative effects on the oxygen sensors and other related 'stuff' in controlling emissions. My recommendation is Penrite Classic Light. (Noting use of ZDDP on the label) If you can't find an appropriate product a diesel spec oil should be fine as these engines are all flat tappet. ~ Vince The oil to to do the running in needs to be a basic 20/50 Vince once run in you need to do your research I spent ages on the phone The one I use is "Old Spec" designed for our type of engine with ZDDP I rang their technical department they were very knowledgeable about the problems of ZDDP "or lack of it" they do their own blending! this is a bit from their site Qualube Classic Mono Grade These lubricants have been manufactured by our company since 1921, to the tried and tested formulas of their day. Available in SAE20, 30, 40 & 50 viscosities. Qualube Classic Elite Manufactured to bridge the gap between non additive lubricants and the highly additive treated lubricants of today. Especially produced to service the requirements of older vehicles possibly first registered between 1945 & the 1960’s. Made from high quality mineral oils that have been enhanced by anti-wear and antioxidant additives. Manufactured in SAE 20, 30, 40, 50 & 20w/60 viscosities. |
|
|
|
Post by glennr on May 18, 2010 6:35:52 GMT
Thanks all, some very helpful information for Patrick(and me)
If the car is only to be used in summer would it pay to use a thinner oil? or is is it 20/50 all the way with the 3 litre engine??
|
|
|
|
Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 18, 2010 6:59:29 GMT
Thanks all, some very helpful information for Patrick(and me) If the car is only to be used in summer would it pay to use a thinner oil? or is is it 20/50 all the way with the 3 litre engine?? The service manual says SAE 20W or 20/30W so the 20/50W should be fine Glenn in any case he will have to use what is available in France  |
|
|
|
Post by enigmas on May 18, 2010 8:11:07 GMT
Typing in haste in the morning I didn't realize it was a 3 litre...with only 50% of the flat tappets of most older designed engines....so that's 50% of the ZDDP....right? Ok, whatever the brand oil used (it should contain ZDDP in the correct percentages) change it and the first filter very early if it's a freshly rebuilt engine. I'd be more concerned about breaking a fresh cam and lifters in without a suitable oil? If possible, locate a local camshaft grinder/manufacturer and phone them. Most are more than happy to give technical advice about how these components should be run in. Pistons and rings are only one element and these need to be 'loaded' during running in, to bed in properly. Good luck ~ Vince |
|
|
|
Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 18, 2010 9:48:32 GMT
Typing in haste in the morning I didn't realize it was a 3 litre...with only 50% of the flat tappets of most older designed engines....so that's 50% of the ZDDP....right? Ok, whatever the brand oil used (it should contain ZDDP in the correct percentages) change it and the first filter very early if it's a freshly rebuilt engine. I'd be more concerned about breaking a fresh cam and lifters in without a suitable oil? If possible, locate a local camshaft grinder/manufacturer and phone them. Most are more than happy to give technical advice about how these components should be run in. Pistons and rings are only one element and these need to be 'loaded' during running in, to bed in properly. Good luck ~ Vince Sadly Vince we go back to the times of the obligatory notice in the rear window "Running In Please Pass" and it was the norm to change the oil and filter at 500 miles the cams and followers never suffered as long as your brain controlled your foot and a lot of cars from that period are still on the same engine it must tell us something |
|
|
|
Post by Phil Nottingham on May 18, 2010 20:06:13 GMT
Thin mono grade is not a god idea in the 3 Litre engine espeacilly if worn use 20/60 if you can get it. The roller tappet is designed to give high valve lift and consequent very high spot load on the pushrods and valve stems (exhausts) so it needs some high wear additive. The roller tappets have a habit of wearing flats on them too which makes consistent tappet clearance impossible - they do protect the cam sahft however which was a wekness on 5 bearing IOE's in the early P4's
|
|
|
|
Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 18, 2010 21:20:33 GMT
No a mono is not a good idea if you need a good cheap oil in bulk by a manufacturer who has been about a long while Witham oil is a really good buy I use the Qualube Classic Elite Manufactured to bridge the gap between non additive lubricants and the highly additive treated lubricants of today. Especially produced to service the requirements of older vehicles possibly first registered between 1945 & the 1960’s. Made from high quality mineral oils that have been enhanced by anti-wear and antioxidant additives. Manufactured in SAE 20, 30, 40, 50 & 20w/60 viscosities. www.withamgroup.co.uk/default.asp?page=378 |
|
|
|
Post by Phil Nottingham on May 18, 2010 21:35:34 GMT
Looks to offer a good range suitable for P5/P5B's and all of our - pity no prices given
|
|
|
|
Post by Warwick on May 19, 2010 0:50:42 GMT
This is not related to a Rover, but I'll toss it in as an example of how important good lubrication is to the life of an engine.
In 1956, my father bought a new Holden FJ sedan. This was the face-lifted version of the original 1948 Holden (later known as the FX) which was based on a small pre-war Buick design that never went into production. Both cars used what was known here as the Holden grey motor; a simple but robust 132 cubic inch (2.1 litre) OHV straight six.
It used flat, solid tappets and push-rods running on a fibre-gear-driven camshaft.
It had NO oil filter - just a wire gauze strainer fitted over the oil pump pick-up.
It was used as any typical family car but we did go on long touring summer holidays every few years where considerable distances were covered in 4 or 5 weeks. By the time I was old enough to get my driver's licence, Dad had replaced it with a Peugeot 404 and the FJ had been given to me. When it became my first car, it was 12 years old and had covered 73,000 miles (118,000 km).
I decided to "do it up". Strip the engine, replace the clutch, and give it a respray.
When we took the sump off, we discovered that the wire oil strainer had fallen off long ago and had been sliding back and forth on the bottom of the sump. This had worn away most of the wire gauze.
Upon removing the head we discovered that the valves needed a regrind (as expected) but there was only minimal wear in the bore and only a slight ridge needed to be removed. It didn't need a rebore. All that was required were new standard size rings. There was also negligible crankshaft wear and new standard size bearings were fitted.
Why was there so little wear?
Dad walked to work each day as it was less than a half a mile.
When the car was used, he always warmed it up at idle before driving off.
He blipped the throttle just before turning off the engine so that no combustion gases remained in the cylinders.
If he needed to work in the garage and the car had to be moved out onto the driveway, he would roll it out without starting it, and we would have to push it back in later. No unnecessary cold starts.
And he changed the oil every 500 miles. Much less than the recommended interval.
|
|
|
|
Post by enigmas on May 19, 2010 2:49:58 GMT
That oil change rate shows a fastidious nature Warwick. Really any vehicle that is used sporadically needs more frequent oil changes due to the tendency of cold oil to absorb moisture (and create mayonnaise). I'm not so certain that engines lasted longer in the 'old days' John. (I'm no spring chicken at 57) For instance my wife's 1997 Mitsubishi Lancer has done well over 200,000 kms with the most minimal of maintenance. There's also a greater depth of knowledge with the average mechanic with regard to metallurgy and wear factors of critical components like camshafts. Has anyone on this board ever bothered to measure the lift of the camshaft in their cars? Generally I'd say no, as the motors are very forgiving and if the lift varies from cyl to cyl by .010" or so they'll still run. It's more a matter of degree (no pun intended. I tend to have very autistic tendencies in relation to engine rebuilds. |
|
|
|
Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 19, 2010 6:13:47 GMT
Looks to offer a good range suitable for P5/P5B's and all of our - pity no prices given I paid £68 for 25Lt Phil that £13.60 for 5Lt probably gone up this year I can ring my local depot 5 miles away and check. |
|
|
|
Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 19, 2010 6:20:48 GMT
That oil change rate shows a fastidious nature Warwick. Really any vehicle that is used sporadically needs more frequent oil changes due to the tendency of cold oil to absorb moisture (and create mayonnaise). I'm not so certain that engines lasted longer in the 'old days' John. (I'm no spring chicken at 57) For instance my wife's 1997 Mitsubishi Lancer has done well over 200,000 kms with the most minimal of maintenance. There's also a greater depth of knowledge with the average mechanic with regard to metallurgy and wear factors of critical components like camshafts. Has anyone on this board ever bothered to measure the lift of the camshaft in their cars? Generally I'd say no, as the motors are very forgiving and if the lift varies from cyl to cyl by .010" or so they'll still run. It's more a matter of degree (no pun intended. I tend to have very autistic tendencies in relation to engine rebuilds. No I am not saying they lasted longer Vince just for the time in terms of build tolerance and the oils used there are a lot still running on the same engine etc today. Modern engines are far superior in a lot of ways  bombproof compared to to some older lumps my modern preference is Honda |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 19, 2010 6:43:58 GMT
Lets hope Patrick can understand this! Is a summary necessary from someone who understands oils?!!
|
|
|
|
Post by Warwick on May 19, 2010 7:11:04 GMT
Rule 1: It MUST be slippery.
|
|
|
|
Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 19, 2010 7:16:29 GMT
Rule 1: It MUST be slippery. Nice one Vince Glenn is looking after Patrick in the summary/translation Peter |
|
|
|
Post by enigmas on May 19, 2010 8:53:27 GMT
Ok, I think we're all very passionate about the oil we use in our treasured cars. I also think that all of us agree that there must be the correct pecentage of ZDDP in the oil (whatever brand used) to protect the lifters and cam lobes during the break-in period. Phil's point about the high pin point pressures encountered by the 3 litre valve gear is valid. My old 1942 WLA HD motorcycle also runs roller tappets and pressures are extremely high on the cam lobes, so much so that reprofiling the camshafts is not recommended unless the 'business' doing the work has a high degree of expertise with these types of camshafts. So here's my advice to Patrick for what its worth. Use an oil with the correct percentage of ZDDP (Whatever the brand). Change the first lot of oil and the oil filter 'real soon' after first start up. (It will be 'full of particles' from the reconditioning and bedding in process)I'd take if for a run (on hilly counrty...no freeways...load the engine and vary the revs) for a couple of hours and then drop the oil. Fresh oil again. Next oil change is up to you, but I'd probably do it at 300 to 500 kms. Given that this is a fully reconditioned engine, I thiink it's cheap insurance. As an aside, when I was an apprentice motor-mechanic in 1968 (another life time ago) working for a company selling Peugeots, Renaults and Citroens, there was a young mechanic (22 yrs) who purchased a new Alfa Romeo. He would only change the oil after the engine was very hot and in a sealed garage, as he didn't want any dust to cause contamination during the oil change. Now thats anal. (True story) |
|
|
|
Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 19, 2010 8:58:02 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 19, 2010 9:28:53 GMT
Looks to offer a good range suitable for P5/P5B's and all of our - pity no prices given I paid £68 for 25Lt Phil that £13.60 for 5Lt probably gone up this year I can ring my local depot 5 miles away and check. I will continue this in general |
|
|
|
Post by Phil Nottingham on May 19, 2010 19:07:37 GMT
I have used Comma 20/50 (green) in P5/P4/P2/Land Rovers for 20 years - this I buy at less than £30 for 4 x 1 gal.
Use a 15w/50 in the V8 though but may go over to 20/50
|
|
|
|
Post by Warwick on May 20, 2010 1:31:13 GMT
... there was a young mechanic (22 yrs) who purchased a new Alfa Romeo. He would only change the oil after the engine was very hot and in a sealed garage, as he didn't want any dust to cause contamination during the oil change. Now thats anal. (True story) A pity none of that could have stopped the body rusting away, even in this country. |
|
|
|
Post by glennr on May 20, 2010 8:03:18 GMT
........and what about the gearbox and rear axle??? Many thanks for the replies |
|
and do the oil change as Phil's recommendation 
bombproof compared to to some older lumps my modern preference is Honda