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Post by Warwick on Jun 8, 2010 6:07:28 GMT
Michael,
If the box has been machined, it mostly means that it has been modified to accept a different (hopefully better) seal and/or bearing. Therefore it would need to be fitted with the same type of seal.
If you are lucky, the leaking may be due to the seal drying out and aging while sitting unused. If you are unlucky it will be because the modification, like most, has not been permanently successful.
I can't remember your initial car info. Can you still contact the previous owner? Do you know his name? Did we find your car in the database?
Sorry - it's easier to ask that to hunt back through your early posts and e-mail.
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mjb59
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Post by mjb59 on Jun 8, 2010 11:26:20 GMT
Thanks Warwick. Glad I didn't wear you out with my painful installation of a Facet pump. (Which has given me greater pleasure than most of my paid work this week!). I know the previous owner's name, but haven't tried to contact him for 8 years, so whether he's still at the same address I'll find out. The receipt is from a Sydney power steering co. engineer and is from 1998 (and the work lasted until now!) and says 'P/S Box seal kit: P/S box top: Material and 1 seal: Dismantle P/S box and inspect : Make up a F.T sector bush: Machine housing: Assemble and pressure test.' Cost $533 AUD in late '98. I've just found some correspondence I had with previous owner just after purchase. He said 'The steering box was modified by the previous owner but still leaked. I had an engineer machine and fit a modified seal. This cured the leak.' He also said ' The vague steering is the only thing I didn't like about the car (!)' Do you have the knowledge to tell me what that means has been done, and what I should do now? And I'd still like to know if David fixed his leak by replacing one washer, because that sounds good to me.
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Post by enigmas on Jun 8, 2010 11:31:49 GMT
Michael, Luckily I still have the receipt dated 19/6/92. Quad seal. Part No. XR118 $6.35 ea. Manning Hydraulic Pneumatics Pty Ltd Unit 3, Lot 1 Melrich Road Bayswater, Victoria, Australia 3153 PH: (03) 9762 8633 FAX: (03) 9762 2764 MOB: 0418 332 373 This is their Web Link. www.manninghydraulicpneumatics.com.au/The mounting plate for the Volvo box is not a 'difficult' task. Unfortunately most of my measurements are extrapolations from research. Now if we could persuade Warwick to remove the mounting plate (Volvo box) from his P5B we would have accurate dimensions from the real McCoy. ~ Vince PS. From my recollection if you remove the pitman arm (the steering arm on end of the rocker shaft)...there's a sponge 'washer', a circlip, a flat washer and then the quad seal. Pick it out carefully and don't scratch the surfaces. To remove the pitman arm remove the large nut. (Unfortunately this won't come off...correct me someone if I'm wrong here... unless you move the front torsion bar mount across a bit!) *Also the pitman arm can stick to the rockershaft splines and you'll either need a puller or a large steel rod 3/4 of a metre x 12 or 15mm which you drop down from the top...rest it on the pitman arm close the the housing and give a wack with a substantial hammer to release it from the splines. it's not pretty but it works and may cause some gimacing here.
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mjb59
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Post by mjb59 on Jun 8, 2010 11:42:22 GMT
Thanks very much Vince. As you'll see from my last post, I've found receipts and info suggesting that the box may have been modified to accept a different seal, so not sure what to do now.
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Post by enigmas on Jun 8, 2010 11:57:58 GMT
Michael most likely the original quad seal is still fitted. Since this is all there was originally, a cheap fix would be to replace it with a fresh quad seal.
* Remove (tear off the large foam washer...its redundent anyway) and take a look with a good light from underneath to see if the circlip and washer is still there. I bet it is.
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mjb59
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Post by mjb59 on Jun 8, 2010 12:35:40 GMT
Thanks Vince. So are you saying I could replace the quad seal without removing the whole box and dice from the car?
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Post by enigmas on Jun 8, 2010 14:19:26 GMT
Yes. It would be on your back and pretty uncomfortable unless you have access to a hoist.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2010 23:28:30 GMT
The link below has pics and details of how i changed mine. I think trying to do the job with the box still on the car is more hastle than its worth. It was a real battle to get mine of even with the box off the car, as u can see from the pics. www.vintagevehicle.co.uk/Rover%20PAS%20seal%20change.htm
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mjb59
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Post by mjb59 on Jun 10, 2010 4:59:01 GMT
David that is absolutely brilliant for someone like me who is about to attempt this. Thanks very much for the great photos and feats of strength. Your demonstration will save me hours of mucking around. Vince gave me a contact for quad seals and I've just received a quad seal by return post (thanks Vince!). I can now see the problem - not one of Rover's finest engineering moments is it? Is it ironic that to replace a seal so skimpy you have to use equipment that would pull the hub off the space station? Silly question: is it ok to reuse the washer if you've had to drill a hole in it? I presume it's not the washer that is assisting with sealing, but that it just holds the oil seal in place? Another silly question: Is it VERY wrong to give the drop arm a decent tap with a hammer to separate it? And a final silly question: Did it stop leaking?
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Post by enigmas on Jun 10, 2010 13:30:46 GMT
Nice presentation David.
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Post by stevemac2002 on Jun 13, 2010 13:00:20 GMT
This is a good thread for me as I about to change the very same seal. I'm lucky as I have access to a ramp so I'll be doing it from below. I have two comments to make as follows: The workshop manual goes on about taking off the top cover to allow the shaft to be moved before replacing the seal. It seems this is not necessary from the above. Any views on this?
Also I would love to know if the hole in the washer was an issue? Was a new washer fitted or did the hole make no difference? Anyway, I'll let you know how I get on.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2010 15:47:31 GMT
I would say yes it is ok to use the same washer. Just make sure any damage or burs are filed down so the surface is flat.
Using a hammer to bang the rocker shaft is ok. But make sure you don’t damage the thread on the end. You can wind the nut on before you hit the thread that way if the thread is compressed or bent when you hit it, removing the nut will pull it back in to shape again.
Using a combination of a puller and a hammer is a good trick. Or you can use a puller, put tension on it (80-100 Nm) and leave it over night. Sometimes that works.
I used the same washer (with a hole in it) and yes it did stop leaking.
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Post by stevemac2002 on Jun 14, 2010 16:15:21 GMT
What do you think about the proceedure in the workshop manual where it talks about removing the top cover from the box befroe moving the shaft up? It seems a bit complicated to me and I didn't want to do it that way as there is a high probability of damaging the top seals/gaskets when removing the cover. Your way ( albeit with the box still on the car) seems straitforward and do-able providing the arm comes off OK. Did you have to hammer the shaft? If so how far up into the box did it go?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2010 21:41:11 GMT
It did it off the car with a big puller and a bearing separator. It’s a nice smooth procedure. (No hammering)
If you were to use a hammer I would have thought the impact would travel down the shaft in to the worm gear and steering mechanism. This is all quite substantial stuff and made of hard steel so you would probably be ok.
But, I wouldn't advise doing anything that is contrary to what is written in the manual.
I doubt any amount of hammering would get a 3cm taper spline off anyways. :s
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mjb59
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Post by mjb59 on Jun 17, 2010 10:27:22 GMT
Much appreciate all that advice David. I've got a bit stuck on a fuel problem, but I'll get to the steering box soon.
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Post by stevemac2002 on Sept 14, 2010 8:27:17 GMT
Just finished doing this with the box off the car. What a job, had to use a 10 ton hydraulic puller to get the drop arm off and even then still had to apply some heat! Also virtually impossible to get the retaining washer out and in the end I had to drill two small holes in it and then prise it out using a couple of small jewellers screwdrivers. I found that one hole just wouldn't do it as the washer kept tilting and sticking on the shaft. A couple of other observations that may help anyone else having a go at htis 1. Take off the carb as it makes it is a lot easier to get the box out through the top. 2. Remove the rubber coupling on the steering column as it is easier than trying to pull the column off the spline, also dont need to pull steering column into the car this way. 3. Mark the drop link before removing as it can go back in 4 different ways.
Good luck, not a job for the faint hearted!
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Sept 14, 2010 15:50:28 GMT
Steve you must like a challenge doing it that way The box comes out underneath the car and is really a straight forward job. Undo the flex coupling (no need to remove the coupling off the splines either side) remove the steering link and track rod, remove the feed and return to the box, then the 3 securing bolts remove the box through the gap. The arm can be difficult but you got round that one the washer when the box is off is best removed by unbolting the top cover after removing the worm adjust nut and pulling the cover and shaft upwards slightly and pushing it back then the washer falls out. After working on these boxes in depth and knowing what causes the leak don't expect a long term repair! but you did well Have a read roverp5.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=rover12&action=display&thread=4541&page=1The link arm will only fit in working position the box has 3 turns L to R count 1.5 and the link arm faces towards the front of the car this is the only position the drop arm fits and the track rod and steering link will go back
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Post by stevemac2002 on Sept 16, 2010 17:15:09 GMT
Couldn't get it out through the bottom as there is a rigid brake pipe in the way! Also swear there are 4 positions the arm will fit back onto the shaft. Having said that I did work out the 3 turns end to end , set it in the middle (1.5 turns) and then fit arm pointing to the front. I was worried about loosening the top of the box and moving the shaft up to get the washer out asI didn't want to mess up the top gasket/seals. Anyway, all back together now and no leaks ( so far). I'm not looking forward to seeing drops of steering fluid on the drive again but I expect they will appear again at some point. Still its got to be better than the flood that was there before. Oh what fun
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Sept 16, 2010 17:48:41 GMT
If the brake pipe is original the box for sure will come out under the car it's a matter of orientation! this is info for anyone who is contemplating the job. The arm will fit in other positions but none of which will allow you to steer the car, just remember 1.5 turns with the arm opposite and in line with the steering shaft/cam as per picture. It's all good fun Steve s88.photobucket.com/albums/k163/johnwp5bcoupe/TestingBox.jpg
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Post by stevemac2002 on Sept 16, 2010 18:48:34 GMT
Definitely good fun. Its nice to run a proper car that can be taken apart and fixed. However, Its a shame to think that after all that work it only going to leak again
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Post by stevemac2002 on Sept 24, 2010 9:19:47 GMT
Its leaking again! (but not as bad as it was).. Is there any "simple" way to replace the seal with a better/alternative type? I used a new JRW seal/foam ring set and the housing/bearing are both in good condition.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Sept 24, 2010 19:46:36 GMT
Steve it's just not a matter of changing a seal it's how good the shaft is? how good the bush is? how good the quad seal seat is? and the condition of the clamp washer? This is why I spent so long with the box mods I have done PM me
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2010 21:18:10 GMT
its unfortunate that before i fitted my sponge washer i dropped it in a puddle of PAS fluid. So its hard to tell if it leakes. There use to be a constant drip on the end of the rocker arm which is no more and the fluid level hasnt gone down in 4 months. Im happy enough with that. Rebuilt my TR6 engine the other week... now it leaks like a sieve, oil and water. d**n it! just a couple of tweaks im sure, new o-rins and a jubie clip sould do it.
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