drop arm seal kit leaks

[Deleted]

Ive just purchased and fitted a JRW drop arm seal kit.

It comprised of a little o ring and a sponge washer.

When you take the drop arm of there is a sir clip which the O ring just seems to sit on top of. Then on top of that goes the sponge washer and finally the drop arm.

There is a quarter inch gap beweet the eyes of the sir clip, so the O ring does not contact.
So there is effectivly a quarter inch gap where no seal is made.
(View attachment)

Needles to say, the thing leaks like a sieve.

Questions:

1. Is there a proper seal inside the steering box that has worn out or is this o ring a nd sponge washer all that holds back the fluid?

2. If so is there anywhere i can get a seal kit that works?

3. Am i missing some vital piece of information?

Attachments:

[johnwp5bcoupe]

I am not sure if you are talking about a manual box or a Hydrosteer PAS David?

If it is a manual I can't remember any foam ring?

If it is a PAS box it is not correct, there is first an oil seal followed by a washer then the circlip then the foam ring.

Can you clarify what box

[Deleted]

Yes its a PAS box. but in the JRW drop arm kit all i got was this little o ring and a foam washer.

I removed the sir clip but wasnt aware of any oil seal beneath it. But then again, because there wasnt a oil seal supplied with the repair kit, i wasnt looking for one.

with a bit of luck the drop arm will come of easier this time because i covered it in copper grease.

Thanks John

[Deleted]

heres a pic. The old sponge washer and the sir clip have been removed.

Note the red arrow.

Is this the old oil seal, because i just assumed it was part of the steering box casing.

Attachments:

[johnwp5bcoupe]

Does this look familiar?



If it is the same there is a flat washer under your arrow and under that is the shaft seal.

It is a bit difficult from your picture to guess which box it is you will have to pick out the washer carefully

[Warwick]

Does anyone know if the P5/P5B spline is the same as for the Range Rover.

[enigmas]

The rocker shaft (I think this is the correct term) should not be fitted with an O ring. The correct seal is a quad seal.
This seal looks like an O ring at first glance but actually has a square cross section...with a continuous groove on each of its 4 sides. This seal is available from any reputable bearing supplier for minimal cost.

Your drawing is incorrect. The 'seal' (from recollection...I'm currently on my lunch break) should be seated in the housing, then followed with a special hardened washer and then a circlip to hold it in place...then the foam piece.

The current illustration would allow the seal to fall out.

Note: The quad seal is designed to seal under pressure. They tend to leak at rest (no pressure applied)

[johnwp5bcoupe]

Jun 2, 2010 2:44:55 GMT enigmas said:

The rocker shaft (I think this is the correct term) should not be fitted with an O ring. The correct seal is a quad seal.
This seal looks like an O ring at first glance but actually has a square cross section...with a continuous groove on each of its 4 sides. This seal is available from any reputable bearing supplier for minimal cost.

Your drawing is incorrect. The 'seal' (from recollection...I'm currently on my lunch break) should be seated in the housing, then followed with a special hardened washer and then a circlip to hold it in place...then the foam piece.

The current illustration would allow the seal to fall out.

Note: The quad seal is designed to seal under pressure. They tend to leak at rest (no pressure applied)

My concern was Vince I needed to find out for sure what box was fitted.

David can see the washer which is not a hardened one Vince, they take a bit of fiddling out! I did one box and had to drill a hole in it and use a small screw driver to prise it out! I had a spare complete with seal and not as you point out an "O" ring? I think he must have a mod for a manual box? he needs to ask the question at JRW or his *O* ring is not a *O* ring?

[Deleted]

I causes unessassary confucion here.

The original set up was just the sponge washer. But the after market kit, for some reason splits in two bits. Sponge washer and O ring, or quad seal as you say. (it does have a little groove in it.)

Yes, il have a look underneath that washer, you can see how i missed it. I assumed there would be a proper oil seal somewhere there but was afraid i migh have to open the thing up to get at it.

Ill contact JRW because you would expect the drop arm seal kit to come with the oil seal aswell, not just the foam washer.

[enigmas]

John & David. I had my P5 box rebuilt by a specialist of these types of power steering units and he did modify 'something' to make it leak free. Previous over the years I had rebuilt the box several times as the new quad seal would only last for a year or two before it again started to weep. It always worked fine, but the leaking oil would trash the torque arm bushes after a time and lead to erratic braking. The job from recollection was done about 4 or 5 years ago and it is still oil tight where the pitman arm fits (where the quad seal is). It cost me $700 AUD and I removed and fitted it myself. I also dispensed with the foam sponge/washer which is something of an embarrassment from an engineering viewpoint.

[johnwp5bcoupe]

I suppose if the casting was machined deeper Vince you could fit a more substantial seal? or 2 ? the one fitted is very thin

[enigmas]

John I have really no idea. Externally there is nothing to see. I was just sick to death of that leaking seal. At the time I was told that under pressure from the pump, the alloy body of the unit shows quite a bit of expansion/movement. The pump output is needlessly high as you probably know. To someone not used to these cars it often feels like the steering shaft is not connected to anything! There is a modification to the relief valve that drops the pressure significantly.

As an aside, the 'quad' seal tends to leak when the system is at rest...no pressure working against it and may also be caused by the high expansion and contraction rates of the alloy body under heating and cooling cycles.

[enigmas]

Warwick remove the pitman arm off your P5 and try it on the Rangie.

[Warwick]

Jun 3, 2010 10:59:30 GMT enigmas said:

Warwick remove the pitman arm off your P5 and try it on the Rangie.

Very funny Vince. That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid doing.

My expensive modification and rebuild on the Rangie didn't work.
Can you remember who did yours?

[enigmas]

Warwick: These are the details I have.
Contact Eddie: Mob [phone].
He works from home (either Knox or Ferntree Gully) and has a large shed in his back yard full of equipment/machinery for rebuilding and modifying this and similar units. Very professionally setup. He is a former Jaguar machanic. Expect to pay a bit.

* Mine was rebuilt including mods to the housing for the bottom seal. 9/01/07. It is still leak free. He tends to adjust the end play for the rocker shaft on the bench which removes all play. I found this caused stiffness and lack of self-centering on the car. Adjust the unit on the car for optimum feel. ~ Vince

[Warwick]

Thanks Vince.

[Deleted]

Jun 3, 2010 5:36:04 GMT enigmas said:

John & David. I had my P5 box rebuilt by a specialist of these types of power steering units and he did modify 'something' to make it leak free. Previous over the years I had rebuilt the box several times as the new quad seal would only last for a year or two before it again started to weep. It always worked fine, but the leaking oil would trash the torque arm bushes after a time and lead to erratic braking. The job from recollection was done about 4 or 5 years ago and it is still oil tight where the pitman arm fits (where the quad seal is). It cost me $700 AUD and I removed and fitted it myself. I also dispensed with the foam sponge/washer which is something of an embarrassment from an engineering viewpoint.

Yes this is my next step. Take it to my local machine shop and have them bore out the end of the casing. Then just knock an oil seal in. Dont wana spend £700 mind you. My only aim is to stop it leaking, mechnaically its pretty sound.

I still havent investigated whats beneath that washer. I hear ther is already an oil seal in there somwhere. :S

And yes the sponge thing is a bit crap, I just thought it was to stop grit geting on the rocker shaft. But its seems to be more of a drip catcher for the impending leak. lol

[Warwick]

David,

I'm the last person who should offer advice on P5 power steering boxes, not having much experience with the car yet and not even having a genuine steering box fitted.

However, the Range Rover box seems to be of a similar design and it certainly suffers from the same leaking problem. So just a word of warning based on Rangie experience down under.

It's unlikely to be that simple. Be careful and be prepared to ruin the box or waste the money spent by not solving the problem. Machine shops and steering specialists down here have been trying to solve the problem since the Range Rover first appeared with PAS.

There are few people who can get it right and those who do have had a lot of experience, and even then they say the results aren't guaranteed. The design fault appears to be with the bearing and not the seal. The bearing goes (even slightly) and then it chews out the seal. Those who have tried to replace the bearing with a better one, have also frequently come unstuck.

Get as much advice as possible from those who have gone before in the UK.

Good luck.

[enigmas]

David, I wouldn't be taking it to the local machine shop. The rebuilder I went too guaranteed his work. He had rebuilt other units & he was a former Jaguar Mechanic with knowledge of these English units. If I were you I'd just replace the quad seal (don't buy the complete kit) fit the unit and locate a Volvo box...a much improved design. I know of 2 P5s running these...Warwick and Greg (motor-mechanic & TAFE teacher in Tasmania) who fitted it himself.

Note: Stopping it leaking is not just a matter of fitting a 'lip' type seal...been there done that. These 'alloy' units also distort quite a lot under pump pressure which with the standard pump is higher than really required.

The Volvo unit is cast iron, has negligible/no free play at centre and accepts the Rover pitman arm. The mod is fully reversible and in my view this is the way to go.

[Deleted]

Ive changed the quad seal, still leaks...

But i was told earlier that there is in fact a lip seal in there somwhere aswell.

Interesting about the volvo, what are we talking like P1800 or amazon type box?

When i get a chance to pull it apart again, ill confirm once and for all if there is or isnt a lip seal in there.

[Warwick]

David,
Make yourself a cup of tea, get comfortable in your favourite chair, then wade your way through this lot.

roverp5.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=rover12&action=display&thread=2699

[johnwp5bcoupe]

Jun 5, 2010 15:38:51 GMT @davidtreadwell said:

Ive changed the quad seal, still leaks...

But i was told earlier that there is in fact a lip seal in there somwhere aswell.

Interesting about the volvo, what are we talking like P1800 or amazon type box?

When i get a chance to pull it apart again, ill confirm once and for all if there is or isnt a lip seal in there.

There is no Lip Seal on the shaft David!

[Deleted]

Hi john Its all sorted now thanks. I was looking through your photos. Youve done a fantastic job, do you do all that work yourself?

[mjb59]

David, you say it's all sorted out now. How did you sort it out? I'm in exactly the same situation. I've read all the 'SEARCH' posts, and my expertise doesn't currently run to kidnapping a volvo driver and demanding they donate their steering box. I've looked at Vince's work re templates for mounting the Volvo unit, and it's too skilled for me at this stage.
My steering box was dry for 8 years. Previous owner had receipts for 'remachining of steering box', whatever that means. Now for the first time my reservoir level has dropped, and that sponge thing at the bottom of the shaft is sodden, as are all the components below.
If replacing a seal can fix this problem for a year or so I'm ok with that.
Vince, do you know where in Australia I could get a quad seal?
If I was to try replacing just the quad seal, how much of the steering box do I have to take apart? Can I just remove the drop arm, leave the shaft where it is and put on a seal from below? Or do I have to remove the shaft?
I do have a manual and parts manual for both the 3 litre and 3.5.
David, have you fixed your leak just by replacing the shaft seal?

[johnwp5bcoupe]

Jun 7, 2010 21:02:52 GMT @davidtreadwell said:

Hi john Its all sorted now thanks. I was looking through your photos. Youve done a fantastic job, do you do all that work yourself?

I am pleased you have it sorted David, did you just replace the seal?
Yes I do and thank you