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Post by elan71 on Dec 3, 2015 20:23:19 GMT
Hello, I had my LHD PSB reconditioned at JR Wadhams end of 2013 and installed it in spring 2014. Since then the Rover has done less than 100 miles and everything worked fine (no squeaks or leaks). After parking it at the garage recently and returning a few days later, all ATF fluid was gone (big mess under the car). After topping it up again I went to a workshop to have a closer look. I found the ATF fluid pouring out heavyly (1 drop every few seconds - with engine off) from a hole in the lower part of the PSB).  To me it looks like a major internal problem but I would like to get other opinions as well. As I am unsure to have the box reconditioned again (contacted JR Wadhams but no final feedback yet), I sourced a Volvo 164 PSB. I went through some threads here about it - but just for clarification (to those who have it installed), when using the Volvo PSB reservoir and pump from the Rover are still used? |
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Dec 3, 2015 22:41:19 GMT
Elan71 you have a personal message.
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Post by djm16 on Dec 3, 2015 22:44:51 GMT
I am very sorry to hear about your woes with the PSB. I doubt that there was any problem with the quality of the rebuild, I expect that standing for most of 2 years triggered this one. The seals would have stuck themselves to the rotating surface and as soon as that moved would then have ripped the sealing edge off. The same goes for crank seals too.
I have no experience with a Volvo PSB and how tolerant it might be of standing long periods, I expect the same principles to apply.
The solution is of course rebuild it and drive it.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Dec 3, 2015 23:18:46 GMT
I'm not so sure about that djm16. I think many P5Bs have stood for long periods without this happening and I know of a recently rebuilt PSB which although supplied by a different party was probably rebuilt by the same business and did exactly the same thing.
I suspect the modern seals being used aren't up to the job.
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Post by enigmas on Dec 4, 2015 0:04:19 GMT
The small hole on that plate is to bleed air/fluid during assembly. (I have a small (tiny brass screw...not self tapper) threaded/tapped into the hole as a plug after assembly. Both my boxes have this. You'll probably need to remove it though to either replace the screw or tap and thread it. With some dexterity you may be able to do it in situ...the tap is obviously tiny!
PS. The box will work fine after you do this...if it hasn't already been done. Don't stress.
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Post by Warwick on Dec 4, 2015 0:57:03 GMT
... - but just for clarification (to those who have it installed), when using the Volvo PSB reservoir and pump from the Rover are still used? Yes, Elan. You retain the Rover's pump, the reservoir, and the drop arm (Pitman arm). |
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Post by enigmas on Dec 4, 2015 6:36:22 GMT
Note the small screw.  |
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Post by djm16 on Dec 4, 2015 21:51:05 GMT
I am sure you are right. It is also true that seals today will be made of a different material, possibly softer. However the seals in a 40 year old box will a) have hardened - and therefore resist tearing b) have gained a shiny patina on the rotating surface which will inhibit sticking.
If Elan's box had been used for 10,000 miles first then stored for 2 years it might well not be leaking. The hole in the end of the box that Enigmas will have you put a self tapper into is a breather hole. It may well be fine to block it off, however others have installed a tiny pipe fitting, and then brought a length of clear polypropylene pipe up above the top of PSB. I cannot vouch for this being needed.
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Post by enigmas on Dec 4, 2015 23:29:14 GMT
DJM16... Please read my replies if you are going to make informed comment about what was done and why. The small brass screw in the bleed hole in the end plate is not a self tapper...it is threaded into the hole after the hole was tapped. It wasn't put in as an after thought. Both boxes had this done after a full re-kit with new seals. The screw is fitted after the unit is fully assembled as the hole relieves air pressure at this point during the assembly process. The components fit very snugly. (Have you rebuilt a box?)
Additional information.
The second box fitted to my car was professionally rebuilt and modified (some machining involved) to permanently remedy the design flaw at the rocker shaft end (where the pitman arm fits) The lone OEM 'quad' seal fitted at that end generally fails after a short period and starts weeping ATF. Rover P5s fitted with Hydrosteer PS boxes are renowned for this. There are though, (anecdotely) a few lucky owners out there who have not incured this problem.
John Wallet one of the forum's moderators (and an accomplished restorer), successfully modified both his Rover's PS box and pump to remedy several OEM design faults. I don't know whether he incorporated the small screw in the bleed hole.
The fitting of a tiny brass screw in the end cap has no effect on the box's operation. How it functions is down to the rebuilders skill/expertise.
Storage of used boxes is generally not an issue as the components are immersed/coated in ATF even after removal. The primary issue is usually the bottom quad seal.
PS. (A small aside)
The tiny brass screw modification was illustrated to me over 20 years ago by a stalwart Rover P5 club member Ivan Lewis (deceased). At the time he was in his early 70's. Originally from the UK he was trained in both mechanics and electronics. A quiet and thoughtful man, he would drive his Mk3 P5 coupe up the eastern coast of Australia from Victoria to Queensland each year to visit his daughter. He fitted a 5 speed manual Supra gearbox (modifying and constructing his own bell housing to fit the 3 litre engine) His other modification was to fit a Jaguar electronic distributor to the car. Both mods were done to enhance the car's use for long distance driving.
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Post by enigmas on Dec 5, 2015 21:53:05 GMT
Touch wood Resurgam, you're obviously one of the lucky ones. I'd leave it alone and not disturb anything if it's working fine and not weeping ATF. (You know the adage..."Don't poke the bear!")
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Post by elan71 on Dec 7, 2015 20:42:37 GMT
Thanks for all the feedback, especially to Enigmas.
Unfortunately I am working abroad at the moment (which is also the reason why the Rover is doing so little miles) - so I can not have a look immediately, if my reconditioned Rover PSB has a tappered hole as Enigmas described - which might mean just the screw fell off. Otherwise I would have to tapper the hole.
If the latter, I would assume that the box has to come out anyways as tapping "in situ" would create the risk of putting some metal shavings inside the box....
Still not 100% sure about the function of the hole - if it is for bleeding while assembling the box, would it not have to be closed later on anyways (meaning it should have a tappered hole as standard for final closure)?
Anyways, thanks again - I will keep you updated on any progress with this matter.
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Post by enigmas on Dec 7, 2015 21:54:48 GMT
It's been years since I rebuilt my first box but the tiny hole in the end cover plate is not open to the inside of the box. There's a seal there but fluid is bypassing it just enough to cause the leak. These boxes, as they have an aluminium housing tend to expand quite a lot under heat and pressure...I recall the technician who rebuilt/modified aspects of my second box telling me of the percentage of distortortion under working pressure....which is enormous...hence being careful not to overload it on full lock or if turning the wheels against the edge of a gutter. The bypass mod to the power steering pump John Wallet carried out was/is to alleviate this situation.
Another fault is that the units tend to weep oil when at rest (engine off) and pressure has been relieved internally. The bottom quad seal under pressure doesn't leak but does so when the unit cools and the seals 'relax'.
As for tapping the hole...as I said it's tiny...some grease on the tap will contain the minute amount of material removed.
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Post by Philip on Jan 7, 2016 13:58:53 GMT
Hi everyone and happy new year.
Sorry for my previous errors on this topic.
My car has been sat waiting for its windscreen and my power steering box is leaking fluid. After inspection it appears to be coming from the Base plate as in the previous pictures. Everywhere else is sound. The box was a recon from JR Wadhams in March, I called them and it's covered by Warrenty and I'm waiting for an email confermation.
After my inspection and leaving the car standing on full right lock the leak stopped? The car doesn't leak under pressure, ie running?
Want to get it sorted before my screen goes back in.
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Post by Welsh Warlock on Jan 7, 2016 17:30:26 GMT
It seems as though there may be a batch of bad seals out there perhaps.
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Post by elan71 on Jan 7, 2016 20:12:47 GMT
After my inspection and leaving the car standing on full right lock the leak stopped? The car doesn't leak under pressure, ie running? Want to get it sorted before my screen goes back in. As mentioned above, I can not check at the moment (as having 2500 miles between me and the Rover) but from my memory I can recall that after topping up again and driving the Rover to the workshop (which is just across the yard) there where no drips/fluid visible. That would mean, that the box is not leaking when under load. ..and a further questions to enigmas (as I have not started a forum search on it): Could you elaborate a bit on the mentioned bypass mod to the power steering pump by John Wallet? Last but not least "Happy New Year and troublefree Rovering in 2016 to everyone"! |
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Post by enigmas on Jan 7, 2016 21:35:26 GMT
If I recall correctly Philip wasn't the power steering box reconditioned on Wheeler Dealers when the P5B was show cased. I recall Ed China welding full lock power steering stops onto the subframe.
(Elan71) John Wallet is "the man" to query over the pressure relief valve modification as he designed and machined the component to reduce the pump pressure. John is a moderator on this board and is very knowledgeable. Having said that the pump on my car is OEM and not modified for reduced pressure. My power steering box though has been modified by a specialist in OZ ( formerly a Jaguar mechanic) who machined the alloy case for an additional lower seal. It has been leak free for over 8 years now and the car was used daily until 2012.
The base quad seal on standard boxes usually only remains leak free for a short time. The boxes tend to leak at rest when there is no pressure working on the lower 'quad' seal (a unique type of O ring seal)
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Post by Warwick on Jan 8, 2016 1:35:34 GMT
Sorry for my previous errors on this topic. Hi Philip, You're not alone. A lot of people seem to be having trouble too. If you click on the green button with the gearwheel symbol in the top right-hand corner of your post, you will find that the drop-down menu has a Delete Post option. Of course Delete is only available if it is your post. You can't delete someone else's post. Only the Three Wise Men can do that. While on the subject of posting, a lot of people seem to be having trouble with the Quote function lately. That is, using the Quote button instead of the Reply button. I suspect it is because each post has a prominent Quote button but there is only one Reply button and it's located at the very end of the thread, where it may go unnoticed if you are not reading the last post in the thread when you decide to reply. This results in threads being much longer than they need to be as they are filled with unnecessarily repeated posts and photos - often many times over. The Quote function is very useful but it tends to be over used. If the relevance of what you have to say is obvious to anyone reading the thread, there is no need to Quote. However quoting is very helpful if your post relates to something someone posted further back up the thread or on a previous page, and what you have to say relates specifically to that. Many may not be aware that you can edit the quote, as I've done here with Philip's. You can remove sections that are irrelevant to your reply. You can also remove photos that don't need to be repeated. Just be aware that you need to leave the opening and closing Quote markers intact. The quote begins with square brackets (parentheses) between which are the words [quote author= followed by the poster's name, thread location, date and time codes. The quote ends with [/quote]. Also, when quoting, make sure you type your comments AFTER the [/quote] end marker or what you write will end up inside the other person's quoted text. |
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Post by Philip on Jan 8, 2016 13:39:48 GMT
Thanks for that info. I've now deleted my errors.  |
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jan 8, 2016 16:45:04 GMT
If I recall correctly Philip wasn't the power steering box reconditioned on Wheeler Dealers when the P5B was show cased. I recall Ed China welding full lock power steering stops onto the subframe. (Elan71) John Wallet is "the man" to query over the pressure relief valve modification as he designed and machined the component to reduce the pump pressure. John is a moderator on this board and is very knowledgeable. Having said that the pump on my car is OEM and not modified for reduced pressure. My power steering box though has been modified by a specialist in OZ ( formerly a Jaguar mechanic) who machined the alloy case for an additional lower seal. It has been leak free for over 8 years now and the car was used daily until 2012. The base quad seal on standard boxes usually only remains leak free for a short time. The boxes tend to leak at rest when there is no pressure working on the lower 'quad' seal (a unique type of O ring seal) Thanks Vince the relief valve is still working well and has given no problem, the one shown in Brass was the prototype which I have replaced with a Stainless Steel one, the Aluminium insert had to be made a little bit longer as the new PS connector was a different length.  |
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Post by Philip on Jan 8, 2016 17:32:54 GMT
Hi all, just been running the car and took a look at the steering box leak. I took a video of it which I'm trying to upload. Watch this space!  |
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Post by Philip on Jan 8, 2016 18:55:14 GMT
Steering box leak video? Has anyone ever added a video, or can't we do it?  |
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Post by Philip on Jan 8, 2016 19:14:31 GMT
Steering box leak video? Has anyone ever added a video, or can't we do it? Just checked in the search and found some video from youtube. But has anyone unleaded their own vids? |
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Post by Philip on Jan 8, 2016 19:53:51 GMT
Just looking into that.
More passwords in this world of passwwwwwwwwwwooooooooooooddddddddddddssssssssssssss !!!!!!!!
thanks
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Post by Philip on Jan 8, 2016 20:16:21 GMT
Trada
This is a short clip of my fluid weeping if anyone's interested?
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Post by enigmas on Jan 8, 2016 21:28:28 GMT
John, could you explain how the added length to the rear of the pressure relief valve (PRV) reduces the system pressure. Do you also have the measurements for the added length of the rear portion of the valve. Apart from that the remainder of the valve appears OEM.
PS. I've never bothered to dismantle my pump John and I doubt it's ever been dismantled prior to being in use on my car for over 20 years. Does the reduced pressure make the system less noticeably 'fingertip light' at parking speeds?
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