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Post by enigmas on Jun 1, 2013 10:51:19 GMT
Thanks Peter...I'll follow that up. (I'm in the process of slowly rebuilding a change over P76 V8 for my P5).
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Post by petervdvelde on Jun 2, 2013 18:43:31 GMT
Vince,
Is the P76 a 4.4 with the same bore as a 3,5 but with a longer stroke or has it the same bore size as a 3.9? Wiki says 7500 P76 with V8 were build so not so many. I believe some parts can be taken from the RV8. Can you get hold of the specific P76 motor parts?
Can you just fit a bigger motor without getting in trouble? In Holland you can raise engine capacity under 10%. If you go above 10% you need to go the authority's for a sort of homologation. Thats the reason i didn't use the 3.9 engine which was fitted to one of my P5's.
Further on to the rebuild of my 3.5 V8. I now rebuild the distributor. I was planning to use the distributor from the Range Rover because it has very few parts and wires inside. On the left there is the SD1 distributor, in the middle the RR 3.9 and on the right side there is the P5B distributor. The Sd1 and RR are electronic.
On the picture you see shaft and rotor from the RR 3.9 distributor. The rotor is held in position on the shaft by a small black ring with notches and this black ring was worn so the rotor could rotate a few degrees on the shaft which makes proper timing difficult so i decided to use the SD1 distributor. The Sd1 distributor has a plastic rotor with small steel parts in it but has a much lower weight then the steel rotor of the the RR 3.9 distributor. I believe this relatively high weight causes relatively quick wear on the plastic ring. I polished the distributor housing, cleaned all internal parts and put some grease on the 2 advance mechanism.
Also bought a new vacuum advance unit and Lucas cap and dizzy. Regards
Peter
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 2, 2013 21:11:02 GMT
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Post by enigmas on Jun 4, 2013 11:53:30 GMT
Peter, the P76 block is a 'square' engine having the same bore and stroke at 3.5", giving 4.414 litres or 270 cubic inches. The block is marginally taller/broader and the conrods longer. Due to this piston dwell time at TDC is also increased...this yields excellent combustion pressure 'burn' and excellent torque 338nm (285 lb ft.) @ 2500 rpm and 143 kw (192 bhp) @ 4250 rpm. This output with the factory, small twin throat carb as standard.
The engine has the same big end bearing size but the mains are larger (2.550) and unique to the P76. Locating new main bearings is difficult as they are no longer manufactured but they can be found through sources relating to classic car restoration. The heads are similar to the P5B but have GM type rockers (tandem pivot type) not the type that use a rocker shaft. There is no oil feed to the rocker gear through the block but there is provision for this. If wanting to use Rover cyl heads simply use the P76 pushrods as they are hollow and will feed oil to the overhead gear though the rocker to the shaft. There is no advantage in using the Rover rocker gear for a torque engine. Roller rocker gear is available for the P76 at considerable cost for the rev head.
Fitting the engine to P5B is relatively straight forward as the front timing cover interchanges. Quite a few have been done in OZ. My car is a MK3 so an engineers certificate was required.
Most of the parts are readily obtained as it is a GM engine with the exception of the main bearings. Water pumps can still be found and can be professionally rebuilt without difficulty. Rover starter motors fit with a thin spacer and the reduction units work extremely well. I'm currently having some machine work done on the block and some components, including a camshaft regrind. Interestingly, the shop doing the work on the camshaft showed me some new hydraulic lifters that incorporate a hardened disc at the base of the lifter. So now I've got a set of these on order.
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Post by cyf on Jun 4, 2013 15:37:29 GMT
It's not necesseray to use ARP studs, no? I mean, I can keep my old studs for my rebuild, no?
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Post by cyf on Jun 4, 2013 15:49:18 GMT
It's not necesseray to use ARP studs, no? I mean, I can keep my old studs for my rebuild, no?
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Post by eightofthem (Andy) on Jun 4, 2013 15:57:59 GMT
Cyf are you stuttering?.
You can reuse your old bolts, you do not have to use the studs.
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Post by petervdvelde on Jun 4, 2013 17:33:47 GMT
Hello Cyf, As Andy states its not a necessity but a common used option (especially with tuned engines) and it gives me a peace of mind. A few years ago i had an interim assignment with a company that manufactures large hydraulic cylinders to manage a warranty claim. A customer who uses large cylinder in their paper pulp lines reported that the bottom of one of the cylinder had come off. This bottom was tightened with 28 pieces of M48 bolts. I went to Uruguay to have a look at the damaged cylinder and the working circumstances and it was amazing to see that most of the M48 bolts simply sheared off. Here a picture of an identical hydraulic cylinder in the paper pulp factory which was oke. And some of the sheared M48 bolts. Looking at the log book, learned that hydraulic overpressure was not the cause so the cause had to be in the design or manufacturing. Back in Holland the bolt quality, the cylinder design was checked and the manufacturing procedures. One of the suspects was that the preload in the bolts was not high enough. When you torque a bolt, a part goes to the friction between thread and bolt and bolt head and ring and the other part of the torques is used to preload the bolt. 28 bolts with load sensors integrated in to the bolts were made so with these special bolts it could be determined how much of the torque would go the friction and how much would go to the preload. A test was done with 3 different brands of grease and it was amazing to see how big the differences between the three type of greases and the differences in spread of these 3 brands. On one brand of grease there was a spread of 30% in the the friction component and on another brand of grease it was only 10%. In the end the design was changed (bottom thickness was increased with 150mm steel) and the brand of grease with the lowest spread in friction component was prescribed. So after having above experiences, i have more peace of mind with using ARP studs with special ARP thread lube. When rebuilding the RV8 in my MG some 15 years ago (and before above described experience), i used ARP studs for the crankshaft but not with the heads and after 30.000km (and tin gaskets instead of composite gaskets), i didn't face any problems. Regards Peter
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Post by cyf on Jun 4, 2013 20:57:47 GMT
well, thank you for the explanations Peter
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Post by enigmas on Jun 4, 2013 23:17:31 GMT
Cyf do not worry over the bolt aspect too much. A P5B is not a competition vehicle. If you do anything check the condition of the threads in the block and if suspect, fit stainless heli-coil inserts...this is standard procedure. If you start worrying too much about metal fatigue you'll need to replace every engine component. Peter in his explanation to you is talking about the 'yield' of a bolt. Yield is a measurement of bolt stretch under load...if you were building a race engine this is what you would be measuring. Ensure you do not torque a bolt without a washer onto alloy or it will gall (bite into the alloy) with friction. Use a thread lubricant...engine oil is fine. Interestingly, if you use too slippery a lubricant (alluded to by Peter) you can exceed the yield strength of the bolt and weaken it! If you are really concerned, replace the conrod bolts as these are fastening a reciprocating component with quite a lot of kinetic energy at each end of a piston stroke. The more you know about engines the less likely you will want to rev it hard. Most restorers are careful with their machinery because of this knowledge.
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Post by bydand on Jun 5, 2013 7:07:38 GMT
enigmas, I'm not an engine specialist, but what you say is very enlightening and confirms what I believe, sooo I'm getting there ! Although for the head bolts, I would change them for new ones, they aren't that expensive (info for cyf!) - after doing such extensive work on the engine, I put new bolts everywhere, especially those ones that are under high torque, or 3 stage torque, which means "stretch bolts". For my rover 4, 6 litre, I'll be putting ARP studs for the head bolts ( I only have 20, not 28 like the 3.5 and other older P5B, etc), but will stick to oem bolts for the conrods and main bearings, I also have cross bolts for the main bearings that are not on the P5 engine... Peter, your rebuild is fascinating, like a super series on TV, can't stop watching !
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 5, 2013 17:43:45 GMT
Cyf do not worry over the bolt aspect too much. A P5B is not a competition vehicle. If you do anything check the condition of the threads in the block and if suspect, fit stainless heli-coil inserts...this is standard procedure. If you start worrying too much about metal fatigue you'll need to replace every engine component. Peter in his explanation to you is talking about the 'yield' of a bolt. Yield is a measurement of bolt stretch under load...if you were building a race engine this is what you would be measuring. Ensure you do not torque a bolt without a washer onto alloy or it will gall (bite into the alloy) with friction. Use a thread lubricant...engine oil is fine. Interestingly, if you use too slippery a lubricant (alluded to by Peter) you can exceed the yield strength of the bolt and weaken it! If you are really concerned, replace the conrod bolts as these are fastening a reciprocating component with quite a lot of kinetic energy at each end of a piston stroke. The more you know about engines the less likely you will want to rev it hard. Most restorers are careful with their machinery because of this knowledge.
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Post by cyf on Jun 5, 2013 21:39:21 GMT
Well, you all have experience in engine rebuilding and different advices...
It's not a question of cost but of necessity
Enigmas, I remember what you told me several months ago when I decided to go to the rebuilding, I'm not rebuilding a high perf engine and it's not necessary to put new components everywhere; I still think of it.
As I drive my P5 in a quite way, and I have to make a choic, I will keep my bolts, except for the conrods
I'm not saying that you are wrong Peter and Bydand, I just choose one of the two possible options
OK, now i stop to interfer in Peter's thread
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Post by petervdvelde on Jun 7, 2013 9:23:43 GMT
Hello Vince,
I am little confused. As i learned during my engineering study and also saw on the calculation programs, the cylinder engineers used to calculate the bolts, kinetic energy is not a factor with engineering bolts. The main issue's with engineering bolts is the load (in Newton) and the height and number of load changes which the bolts feels. With these factors the lifetime of bolts is calculated. The load on the bolts in an engine are caused by the acceleration and deceleration of the moving parts (like piston and conrod, Load = mass * acceleration) and the combustion forces. Looking from this side, the conrod bolts hardly "see" forces as the main part of the combustion forces are passed on by the conrod to the crankshaft by the conrod bearings and not threw the conrod bolts. From this perspective the head bolts and the main crankshaft bolts see a much higher loads and severe load changes. So my advice would be to change the main bearing bolts and head bolts first. It is always good to change bolts so it is not bad to change the conrod bolts anyway but not only these.
Also if you look at the development of the RV8, you see that the main crank bearing design changed. On the later and (more powerful engines), you see the cross bolt design. BL would only do this if there was a risk.
A third reason for changing the bolts is that with torquing bolts in aluminum thread, the thread quality of the bolts is more critical then with a steel bolt and nut set up. This because aluminum is quite soft. This soft aluminum is why i prefer studs because i don't like to apply relatively high torque to a steel/aluminum combination. I also have 3 classic motorbikes and all have aluminum engine and on all 3 engines, studs are used for fitting the cylinders and heads.
I realize theory often differs from practice and i am not not an engine specialist (and open for different opinions) and there are always many thoughts on technical issue's. I don't want to confuse Cyf, it could be a good idea if Cyf would contact Paul at V8tuner to have his opinion from his experience working with the RV8. Jim at JRV8 where i bought my parts, didn't recommend to change the conrod bolts.
regards
Peter
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Post by petervdvelde on Jun 12, 2013 19:18:03 GMT
I picked the heads up from skimming. I asked them to skim a little more because the engine had tin gaskets and i will fit the thicker composite gaskets
[f the first head with all seals fitted. i placed the head on the bench on a clean sheet of rubber not to damage the skimmed surface.
Then i fitted the valve to the heads. I bought new valve springs because the engine was in a shed for 10 years and some valves were compressed all the time so these could have lost their tension and valve springs are relatively cheap.
Also picked up the powder coated engine parts which were finally ready. The main pulley, the capacitor and oil pressure sender, i painted myself as these cannot stand the high temperature involved with powder coating. It all looks very nice.
The brackets for the engine mounts, i got powder coated previously and i need to find these.
I was pleasantly surprised by the price for the powder coating. These guys shot blasted, sprayed a layer of primer and a layer of powder coating on all parts in the pictures beneath. There were a lot of small parts (dashboard). I had to wait some time and could look around in their shop so could check their quality of shot blasting and this was very good.
Also due to my mistake, the sub frame had to be recoated. I payed Euro 500,- for the shotblasting, primering and powder coating and also got 10 liters of industrial paint stripper for taking the body to bare metal.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 12, 2013 21:10:36 GMT
Peter are the heads standard 3.5? how much have they removed skimming the heads? are you aiming for a high compression?
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Post by petervdvelde on Jun 12, 2013 21:57:05 GMT
John,
I have standard SD1 heads which came with the SD1 engine (CR 9.35:1) and i asked the guys in the machine shop to skim 0,6mm. The composite gaskets, i found on the 3.9 engine were 1.3mm thick and the tin gaskets on the SD1 engine are 0,6mm thick I could see that the engine was rebuild some time ago (and the heads probably have been skimmed) so got 0,6mm skimmed of instead of 0,7mm Regards
Peter
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Post by petervdvelde on Jun 20, 2013 20:46:00 GMT
After a nice motorbike tour threw Belgian, Luxemborg and Germany this weekend, i continued working on the V8.
The bolts of the oil pickup were fitted with some Locktite on the bolts as i want to be sure these never come loose. Now i have to wait until the zincplating of all the bolts and brackets is ready. It should be ready next week. regards
Peter
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Post by petervdvelde on Jun 28, 2013 23:21:54 GMT
Finally got the parts back from zinc coating.
Besides the engine related parts, i also got other items zinc coated
Plus hundreds of bolts, rings, springs. The costs for this all was Euro 120,- so i believe this is money well spend.
Then fitting a new water pump to the timing cover. Before fitting, i polished the pulley carrier
On the picture also the rocker covers which i took from the V8 from my MG as i was able to buy some used original MGB V8 rocker covers with the MG logo casted in it.
I also assembled the distributor with a new distributor cap and rotor arm and a new vacum advance unit. Also assembled the main pulley.
That it for now.
Peter
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Post by eightofthem (Andy) on Jun 29, 2013 16:58:34 GMT
Stunning Finnish . It is great working with clean parts, very satisfying and looks so much better. And keeps your hands nice and clean
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Post by petervdvelde on Jun 30, 2013 22:40:41 GMT
Thanks Andy, i am a little adapted to clean and polished aluminum. Some more shiny parts: the RV8 in my MG. Every time i open the bonnet, i still enjoy it very much
Back to the RV8 for the P5B
I fitted the water pump and main pulley
And the sump, starter motor and engine mounts + brackets. Before powder coating the sump, it took a fair amount of time to beat all the dents out. The sump bolts should not be torqued too much because it will then squeeze out the sump gasket
and then fitted the alternator + brackets
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Post by petervdvelde on Jul 1, 2013 21:04:20 GMT
I took the fan which had a fair amount of rust.
I shot blasted it and with a spraycan, sprayed primer and a red coat on it
Then i fitted the big "gasket' underneath the inlet manifold.
I applied some fluid gasket around the water channels. This was recommended in a Range Rover WSM.
Then fitted the inlet manifold, the rocker covers, the distributor with new ignition leads and the fan blade.
Thats it for now, Regards
Peter
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Post by eightofthem (Andy) on Jul 1, 2013 21:34:02 GMT
nice
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Post by petervdvelde on Jul 2, 2013 22:06:45 GMT
After that i removed the engine from the engine stand and put it on a trolley so i can fit the torque converter flex plate with the starter gear and torque the main pulley bolt.
The trolley was used for the RV8 in my MG and i had to alter the trolley's engine mount bracket as the angle and position was slightly different.
Here's the engine on the trolley besides the 4 ZF HP22 box which will be used in the P5B
Thats it for now Peter
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Post by petervdvelde on Jul 3, 2013 22:26:10 GMT
This evening i fitted the flange on the rear crankshaft end. i torqued the bolts to the specified torqued and used an L shaped piece of steel to prevent it from rotating
Then wanted it to fit the spacer but this wasn't possible. I fitted a bigger spigot bearing because an LT77 manual box was fitted to the engine and in a Range Rover parts list, i saw that for a 4ZF HP22 a bigger spigot bearing was needed. Looking at the spacer, i think no spigot bearing should be fitted to the crankshaft (can someone confirm this please?)
I think the spigot bearing is fitted to the spacer which is much bigger. The surface doesn't look good on 1 half
Does anybody (Andy, Harvey?) know where i can buy this LDV spigot bearing? Thanks in advance
Peter
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