Introduction and one question

[michele109]

Hi all,

my name's Michele and I just joined this board because I bought a Rover P5 3. IOE.
Why the engine only...?
Well because I own no Rover P5 but a Land Rover 109" Series IIA instead,
and I plan to convert to straight 6 power (erm), the stock 4c simply doesn't cut it.

I bought my engine some months ago and we're now starting to wrench,
so far we tried to start it but no joy, due to a non working distributor.
The starter runs and oil flows, at least it's a good sign, accordingly to my mechanic.

In the next weeks we'll pull the head and then strip the engine down to bits to check internals and rebuild.

Is there any way to tell the HP of an engine?
I guess there's a serial number somewhere, could it help?

Thanks in advance,

Michele

[Phil Nottingham]

Near the head = post it on here + pic. Is it a Westlake head?

[michele109]

Yes yes, Weslake head!!
I hope to see my engine again this week,
my mechanic lowered it into his shop on last Saturday, and I'm just waiting to know when we'll start working on it.
I'll take photos!!

Thanks
:-)

M

[Phil Nottingham]

BHP of a 3 Litre manual engine with Westlake  head is 134 gross (124 net) at 5000 rpm

Engine number will start from at least 770-00000a

Later engines suffix  "c" had larger crankshaft journals and numerous other small changes including oil drain in rear of head with O ring to block face. These dated from mid 1964 on and were the pinnacle of the 3 Litre IOE development till production ceased in 1967

The 2.6 Rover P4 95 engine (not Westlake) was de-tuned (75 to 85bhp depending on CR) and used in LWB etc LR's till 1980 when the Stage 1 V8 S3's replaced it

Can you oblige and post pics of the progress 

[cstorey]

As a matter of interest, what work did Harry Weslake do to the head , and how do you tell one from an earlier type ?

[Phil Nottingham]

Port it - the main improvement being a separate inlet manifold from the old 1 piece rough head casting which the previous  3 Litres had and all P4 and Land Rovers except the P4 110 which had Westlake head on the 2.6 Litre block

[michele109]

Dec 1, 2015 22:27:57 GMT Phil Nottingham said:

BHP of a 3 Litre manual engine with Westlake  head is 134 gross (124 net) at 5000 rpm

Can you oblige and post pics of the progress 

Which brings to my question, I read 134 somewhere on the web, but did all the 3.0 IOE come with 134BHP or there's some difference between engines depending on the year/production?
If they're all the same (HP), that would be great, as 134/124 would be a very good starting point (the small 4c in my 109" was doomed with 77BHP when new, don't know how many survived until today).
I came across this engine while searching for a 2.6, and jumped at the chance to get the better and bigger brother.
I have big hopes to bring this old beast back to life and make it sing, and push my old Series decently

I'll happily share pics as soon as we'll start!
Hopefully before Christmas at least...

[Phil Nottingham]

Yes and no - autos were 129 BHP in Mk2's and had a different crankshaft and will not fit a clutch set up without mods. Mk3's were both the same ie = to the    Mk2 manual


No Mk1's have the Westlake head or will it fit

[michele109]

Soo, unless it was fitted to an automatic gearbox,  it's one of those with 134 BHP originally?

[JohnC]

Many years ago I swapped my 2.6 petrol in my 109 series for a high bhp P5 3 lt engine. It sounded great and went even better. My biggest problem was that I kept snapping rear half shafts (standard rover diff). Salisbury diff gets over this problem, well it did for me. Good luck.

[michele109]

I have a couple of Salisbury axles sleeping on the floor
The 109" will go through some modifications as soon as £££/$$$/€€€ will allow!

[Deleted]

I fitted a 3 litre in my old SWB but although it gave it plenty of go it was heavier on the steering. Later I fitted a rover V8 from a rotten P6b but sold it uncompleted. The buyer finished it off and said it performed well but it was a while back and I lost contact with him.
The original four cylinder used to run its big ends or shake the con rod bolts loose on a regular basis I seem to remember,I got pretty quick at repairing or changing them,I used to carry spares in the tool box.

[michele109]

My dream build would have a Chevrolet V8 engine, but given the crazy costs of shipment from US I decided I'll convert to the old 6 IOE,
this would keep me busy for the next 5 or 10 years

I did a quick search to check prices of spare parts, and I hope my engine is in good nick to start with...ouch...

[michele109]

Finally updating!

We pulled the head yesterday.
My mechanic said he saw much worse (very much worse) engines, and everything seemed okish,
until he ran a finger inside a cylinder and told me there's a "pecca"...can't tell what the English is for this word,
but basically a "ridge" right where the clean surface of the cylinder ends and the dirty zone begins at the top...surface oxidation, dirt, so on.
So a rectification (?) is needed, and that's the easy part.
Problem is, I'd need new larger pistons...
Are these available, and what price should I expect to pay?
I'm going to check Wadham's...or whatever it is, and have a look.

Oh, I got my workshop manual for the 3 lt., 100% original and super nice!
There's everything explained until the last bolt, and lovely technical illustrations...very cool.

I also took note of the serial numbers, so hopefully you guys will be able to tell me what type of engine is mine exactly, and how much hp it had originally?
:-)
One says 542395 (near the plug), while the other is 77005824C (on top).
Attached are a couple of photos.

Merry Christmas and happy holidays everybody!
Michele

[cstorey]

It is very easy to get carried away and do a lot of  unnecessary and expensive work on an engine such as this . Although the bores in the photo are  rather difficult to see in detail, the overall cleanliness of the cylinders and exhaust valves does not suggest to me that this engine is burning much oil ( they all burn oil to a certain extent ) and unless you want to spend a great deal on it whether it is necessary or not, I would leave the pistons, grind the valves and reassemble the whole engine and see how it runs for a few thousand miles

[michele109]

720 GBP + shipment for a set of pistons. Urgh.

We'll double check to see if it's just a matter of cleaning and then just new rings would do the job.
I don't know much about rebuilding engines, this is my 1st time.

[djm16]

Hi Michele,
Where did you get the price for the pistons? Have you tried JP Pistons in Australia?

I recommend having a close look at the camshaft. Checking for scuffing on the lobes. Check each roller cam follower for cracks in the case hardening.

[michele109]

Dec 25, 2015 10:16:46 GMT cstorey said:

and unless you want to spend a great deal on it whether it is necessary or not, I would leave the pistons, grind the valves and reassemble the whole engine and see how it runs for a few thousand miles

Hello,

I got different suggestions from different persons, some say (like my mechanic and a friend) it needs new larger piston and to be bored out,
some say (as you did) leave the pistons etc and see how it runs.
I always thought it's something very technical and all down to exact measurements and strict tolerances, so I'm a little confused (and feel a little down because I couldn't wait to rebuild the engine and hear it running).

Where did you get the price for the pistons? Have you tried JP Pistons in Australia?
I recommend having a close look at the camshaft.

Djm16,

I checked JRWadhams for spares and prices.
I haven't checked JP Pistons in detail, because I guess shipment from Australia would probably burn any saving in price.
We'll finish dismantling the engine on January 1st, to check the camshaft and what's left.

I'm sorry for the late replies but I have such a poor connection that I can't check in as often as I'd want.

[djm16]

Whether the JP pistons are cheaper direct or via JRW depends on the current exhange rate. Currently it is favourable to those with pounds. So worth checking JP.

If it was me, I would probably go for light honing and new rings. However, if I was paying someone to strip the engine and then install it rather than do it myself, there is a risk of having to do the same work twice, so I would go for a rebore.

Have you looked at the bore and current pistons? Can you post some detailed close up photos of the pistons and bores.

[michele109]

This morning we moved on, pulled the alternator, water pump and side cover.
Good news, the camshaft is "molto bello" (very nice) accordingly to my mechanic, I took a look and - in all my naiveness - it looked shiny to me and all fine.
My mate will finish dimsntling it tomorrow probably, and next week we'll bring the block to the shop for real check and measurements.

I'm pretty pumped now, can't wait for next week to come!

I took some photos of the bores and pistons (in situ), but unfortunately I forgot my camera in the garage along with the SU carb...doh!

No pics until next week!

[djm16]

cstorey made an important observation, that the pistons and valves did not look as though much oil is being burned. Hence the advice to leave the bores alone. However, if your mechanic is Italian, he may want to do an outstanding job rather than a tempary measure.

There are two problems associated with a ridge at the top of the bore. First, it indicates wear in the bore. The ammount of wear can be several times larger than the ridge as the piston is moving slowest at the top of the bore. The bore will be ballooning lower down. Second, the ridge can catch on new rings and give them a belt, which is why replacement ring sets usually have a chamfered top ring ("ridge dodger"). The mechanic will want to measure the clearance between the piston skirt and the bore roughly halfway up the bore.

Given that the WSM gives the clearance (bottom of skirt, perpendicular to gudgeon pin) as only 2 thou, there is no guideline as to what is an acceptable wear limit.

A straw poll here would help.
I am going to open the bidding at 5 thou.

[michele109]

I'll leave the pistons (can't afford new ones anyway) & bores alone, and rebuild the rest with new gaskets etc.
Yes, we'd like to do a perfect job, but my budget is what it is and sometimes a compromise is the only option to keep going.
 
I just heard from my mechanic, he pulled the timing cover, checked everything and moved on, he says all seems in good shape!
Woo-hoo!

On Thursday next week, we should bring some parts to an old school "shop" for cleaning etc, we'll have a chat with the guys there for a big check, and the head will be probably slightly skimmed (?) for peace of mind.
I'm pumped.

1st day of the year pic.

[djm16]

While the head is off, I expect your mechanic will suggest removing all the valves and refacing the valve seats. When he does that, it is worth removing all of the roller cam followers for close inspection. Why? See thread "ticking noise from engine".

[michele109]

Of course we'll take good care of the valves :-)
Rollers look almost as new!

Except for the little wear in the bores, so far so good!!

[michele109]

Alright,

I have photos of the dismantled engine in the shop, just checking if/where to start a separate thread for the rebuild :-)