rover3l123
Rover Fanatic
Originally from Llangollen area North Wales and relocated to the US in 1995 with the P5
Posts: 174
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Post by rover3l123 on Nov 26, 2020 20:31:19 GMT
I had posted previously that both front and rear side lights were not working on one side. Without intervention now only one front passenger side side light is not working as the rear light has sprung to life! I have checked the bulb and it works and so I suspect an earthing issue. In addition my indicators (flashers) are not working on one side only (front and rear. I have been trying to locate the earthing points for this circuit but I am not sure where it is. What I have found so far is the following:
1. Drivers side front inner wing - there is a four bullet terminal with four bullet connectors attached. With the one good side for the indicators flashing, I tried disconnecting each of these with no effect. Conclusion these are not the relevant earthing wires.
2. Passenger side front inner wing - there is a second four bullet terminal but only there are no bullets connected. Instead there is just one earth wire connected to the central screw
3. Passenger side rear inner wing - there is a two bullet terminal but no wires are connected. I am sure there should be?
4. Drivers side rear inner wing - have not located an earthing point so far.
Question what should the arrangements look like in terms of number of wires connected and which of the earthing terminals is associated with the side lights and indicator circuits?
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Nov 26, 2020 22:38:29 GMT
I had posted previously that both front and rear side lights were not working on one side. Without intervention now only one front passenger side side light is not working as the rear light has sprung to life! I have checked the bulb and it works and so I suspect an earthing issue. In addition my indicators (flashers) are not working on one side only (front and rear. I have been trying to locate the earthing points for this circuit but I am not sure where it is. What I have found so far is the following: 1. Drivers side front inner wing - there is a four bullet terminal with four bullet connectors attached. With the one good side for the indicators flashing, I tried disconnecting each of these with no effect. Conclusion these are not the relevant earthing wires. 2. Passenger side front inner wing - there is a second four bullet terminal but only there are no bullets connected. Instead there is just one earth wire connected to the central screw 3. Passenger side rear inner wing - there is a two bullet terminal but no wires are connected. I am sure there should be? 4. Drivers side rear inner wing - have not located an earthing point so far. Question what should the arrangements look like in terms of number of wires connected and which of the earthing terminals is associated with the side lights and indicator circuits? You seem to have a lot of earths missing. All the lamps should have a black earth cable attached to the inner wings front and rear both sides. They originally used screwed on open Lucas bullet connectors making 4 terminals (used for head lights, side lights and brake light earths as well) They are notorious for loosening off and attracting corrosion. It is better to dispense with them and replace them with ring connectors screwed onto cleaned and Vaselined bare metal. A further poor earth is often caused by corrosion within the bulb holder itself and/or on the earthing tags on the lamp units themselves. Its just a matter of dismantling cleaning/replacing faulty components and terminals
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rover3l123
Rover Fanatic
Originally from Llangollen area North Wales and relocated to the US in 1995 with the P5
Posts: 174
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Post by rover3l123 on Nov 27, 2020 18:01:30 GMT
I spent a couple of hours today cleaning all of the earthing points and making sure all the black earth wires were connected to the terminal blocks on the body. There were a couple hanging free! Still no indicators on the left hand side.
All bulbs were checked and confirmed to work by swapping them over from side to side
Next I checked (using a digital multimeter) for voltage at the supply side at the LHS rear and LHS front when the ignition was on and the indicator stalk in the on position and there was no power. I repeated this on the RHS front and rear and as expected there was power.
Earthing points are secure and verified with a continuity test between the connector blocks and a known earth point on the body.
So the mystery is why no voltage to the right hand side. The only things I can think of to look at further are:
1. Is the flasher unit at fault, but I would have thought if it was the RHS would also not work?
2. The indicator stalk on the steering column is at fault
Am I missing anything obvious?
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Nov 27, 2020 18:30:03 GMT
Check the indicator stalk bullets under the steering column and the bunch of bullets in the driver's side A panel behind the trim. Flasher unit will be OK if one side works but switch may be faulty on one side but this can easily be checked at the 2 points above.
Continuity can be read OK on low currents but not on high - how did you test the earths as some appeared to be missing?
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rover3l123
Rover Fanatic
Originally from Llangollen area North Wales and relocated to the US in 1995 with the P5
Posts: 174
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Post by rover3l123 on Nov 27, 2020 19:08:18 GMT
Check the indicator stalk bullets under the steering column and the bunch of bullets in the driver's side A panel behind the trim. Flasher unit will be OK if one side works but switch may be faulty on one side but this can easily be checked at the 2 points above. Continuity can be read OK on low currents but not on high - how did you test the earths as some appeared to be missing? For the earths, I identified 4 (maybe there are more that I missed?). The 4 were as follows: 1. LHS front inner wing - There was one wire screwed into the center of the Lucar connector block, but no Lucar bullets connected. I did find one wire hanging close and I reconnected it. I removed the connector block, cleaned it up and checked that with my multimeter set to a resistance setting that I had continuity between the engine block and the connecting block. 2. RHS front inner wing - There is a connector block with 4 Lucar bullets inserted. Again cleaned this up and confirmed continuity between this an Engine block 3. LHS rear inner wing - The was one wire screwed into the centre of the Lucar connector block and again one free wire not connected. I reconnected and verified low resistance between the block and a bolt on the boot latch area 4. RHS rear wing - Same as LHS but the wire with a Lucar connector was already inserted into the block. Again verified the earth.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Nov 27, 2020 19:56:17 GMT
So you have continuity between lamp body and wing?
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rover3l123
Rover Fanatic
Originally from Llangollen area North Wales and relocated to the US in 1995 with the P5
Posts: 174
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Post by rover3l123 on Nov 27, 2020 20:55:14 GMT
So you have continuity between lamp body and wing? Yes I have continuity between the lamp body and the car body shell. However, I have now got it to work. I removed the steering wheel and steering column shroud to access the indicator stalk. After wiggling the wires around it started to work. The only thing I can see that does not seem quite right is that one of the bullet connectors where it is fixed with a copper rivet can be moved a little bit, whereas the other wires seem more solid The connection that seems a little loose is the one with the green / red wire. To be clear that green / red wire is the same circuit as the side that was not working. The other side is the green / white wire. Also that slotted screw you can see is not part of the attachment as the wire is held on to the assembly via the copper rivet only. I have since tried to make it fail by gently tugging on the wire and deliberately moving it around, but it now seems robust. What is the betting as soon as I put everything back, it will fail again
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Nov 27, 2020 22:28:25 GMT
You need to remove the switch and tighten up the rivet holding the contact terminal on the switch green/red cable. Having just replaced the decayed nylon switch spring on my indicator switch on our 3 Litre Coupe this part is easy but the whole top part of the steering column has to be dismantled including removal of the steering wheel!
PS - undoing the terminal block by unscrewing the 2 slotted screws releasss the moving contact and a small spring. It will be difficult to replace this in-situ.
Serviceable indicator switches are hard to come by and Mk1s and P5Bs are different and cannot be easily fitted, Beware of losing/breaking anything
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Post by enigmas on Nov 27, 2020 23:07:55 GMT
The only way to ensure that the all 'electrics' work as intended given the age of these cars is to clean and check each individual connector, contact and earth point. Unless the connectors/earths are cleaned to bright metal (either to brass, steel, copper or whatever the conductor) the gremlins will persist within the electrical systems. This also applies to the fuse box and the fuses in their respective saddles. If there is an earth attachment to the frame, ensure the paint is scratched clean until bright steel shows, then check every earth with a multimeter for continuity between the frame attachment points. (This is made easier with an audible buzzer type meter.) If continuity is poor between these points (wing/mudguard to frame) add a jumper wire of suitable gauge between the 2 panels, this will ensure good earth/ground continuity. Old switches similarly have high resistances at their contact points.
Every lucas bullet & lucar type connector (male & female) unless 'bright' will have resistance. All these resistances add up to create unreliable electrical systems. The fix is really down to nothing more than a diligent and methodical check over each individual electrical system. Spend the time and you'll be rewarded with reliable electrics. Good luck.
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rover3l123
Rover Fanatic
Originally from Llangollen area North Wales and relocated to the US in 1995 with the P5
Posts: 174
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Post by rover3l123 on Nov 28, 2020 16:09:18 GMT
You need to remove the switch and tighten up the rivet holding the contact terminal on the switch green/red cable. Having just replaced the decayed nylon switch spring on my indicator switch on our 3 Litre Coupe this part is easy but the whole top part of the steering column has to be dismantled including removal of the steering wheel! PS - undoing the terminal block by unscrewing the 2 slotted screws releasss the moving contact and a small spring. It will be difficult to replace this in-situ. Serviceable indicator switches are hard to come by and Mk1s and P5Bs are different and cannot be easily fitted, Beware of losing/breaking anything Thank you this is very helpful. I am going to set a day aside to do this when I can give it my full attention and so I don’t lose anything or fumble the repair. I have put the shroud assembly back together for now and what a struggle that was in getting the two halves in place without damaging the parcel shelf vinyl. I think though I do not have it correctly aligned as although all the screw seemed to go back as expected, the gap between the two halves on the underside is tapered rather than being a parallel gap. The top side gap is correct as the small filler piece slotted in correctly. What should the underside look like when correctly assembled?
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rover3l123
Rover Fanatic
Originally from Llangollen area North Wales and relocated to the US in 1995 with the P5
Posts: 174
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Post by rover3l123 on Nov 28, 2020 16:10:16 GMT
You need to remove the switch and tighten up the rivet holding the contact terminal on the switch green/red cable. Having just replaced the decayed nylon switch spring on my indicator switch on our 3 Litre Coupe this part is easy but the whole top part of the steering column has to be dismantled including removal of the steering wheel! PS - undoing the terminal block by unscrewing the 2 slotted screws releasss the moving contact and a small spring. It will be difficult to replace this in-situ. Serviceable indicator switches are hard to come by and Mk1s and P5Bs are different and cannot be easily fitted, Beware of losing/breaking anything Thank you this is very helpful. I am going to set a day aside to do this when I can give it my full attention and so I don’t lose anything or fumble the repair. I have put the shroud assembly back together for now and what a struggle that was in getting the two halves in place without damaging the parcel shelf vinyl. I think though I do not have it correctly aligned as although all the screw seemed to go back as expected, the gap between the two halves on the underside is tapered rather than being a parallel gap. The top side gap is correct as the small filler piece slotted in correctly. What should the underside look like when correctly assembled? I agree and I need to start a planned maintenance of all of the connections
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Nov 28, 2020 22:15:08 GMT
The shrouds do have to be manipulated somewhat to achieve even gaps and to ensure no cables are trapped or displaced from connections. Check everything still works before refitting the steering and tightening all screws
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rover3l123
Rover Fanatic
Originally from Llangollen area North Wales and relocated to the US in 1995 with the P5
Posts: 174
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Post by rover3l123 on Nov 29, 2020 16:36:52 GMT
The shrouds do have to be manipulated somewhat to achieve even gaps and to ensure no cables are trapped or displaced from connections. Check everything still works before refitting the steering and tightening all screws I seems to fit correctly on the top side and the thin rectangular filler piece slots in correctly. Also I was able to screw up the four screws on the side of the shroud, but after doing so the underside looks wrong to me in that the gap between the two halves seems too wide. Could you have a quick look at yours next time you are in the car to check how it should look. here is a photo of my shroud from underneath the column
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Post by Mike’S-a-loon on Nov 30, 2020 4:57:25 GMT
I seem to recall when I did this years ago there was a tendency to get a wire caught between the cover and steering column. If you tighten it up, you will pinch the wire and it will never sit quite right.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Nov 30, 2020 12:24:15 GMT
Your photo clearly shows a misalignment as the semi-circle hole is not aligned. Both our P5 and P5B have an even gap of 3/16"
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rover3l123
Rover Fanatic
Originally from Llangollen area North Wales and relocated to the US in 1995 with the P5
Posts: 174
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Post by rover3l123 on Nov 30, 2020 17:41:40 GMT
Your photo clearly shows a misalignment as the semi-circle hole is not aligned. Both our P5 and P5B have an even gap of 3/16" Thank you I know know what I am aiming for. I should have photographed it before I dismantled it. I must have part of the wiring loom trapped as the two halves don’t naturally want to get closer together at the bottom.
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Post by Ken Nelson on Nov 30, 2020 21:54:50 GMT
I had a lot of trouble getting mine back together also. Not sure it's perfect, but good enough for now. Lots of wires to get crammed back in there!
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Post by djm16 on Dec 1, 2020 2:01:42 GMT
These shrouds can be a misery to get right. The downside of getting it wrong is the high probability that one or more sides of the shroud will break. This may happen some time after the initial assembly. Then you have the additional problem of gluing together distorted pieces of Bakelite. If anyone knows of anything better than slow setting epoxy resin, now is the time to share.
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Post by enigmas on Dec 1, 2020 3:33:07 GMT
You've obviously been there David!
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rover3l123
Rover Fanatic
Originally from Llangollen area North Wales and relocated to the US in 1995 with the P5
Posts: 174
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Post by rover3l123 on Dec 2, 2020 12:29:46 GMT
At least it is good to know that I am not alone with my difficulties 😀
In my case I started at the top end of the shroud and lined the two halves up in order to put the metal piece with the four screws back in place. Then I followed with the remaining 4 long screws which fit into the recessed holes of one half of the shroud.
I don’t understand why the combinations of these fixings would not naturally result in the two halves being correctly aligned. However I notice that the whole assembly can be twisted from clockwise and counter clockwise and so maybe it is not sitting correctly on the underlying structure
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Dec 2, 2020 12:58:52 GMT
It is essential to leave all screws loose and then manipulate the whole shroud round. It is easy to trap a cable at the start
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Post by velvet on Dec 2, 2020 15:16:43 GMT
There's a lot of cables above the cowel, what i do is use a piece of millboard in an arch shape and force it above the cowel and under the binnacle to hold everything out of the way while i put the cowel back. Infact i'm doing one this week and i too have had the same problem your having.
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Post by 3litrekiwi on Jan 10, 2021 8:51:25 GMT
Slightly different problem but electrical so I thought I would continue here. I have been struggling with my speedo and had some sucess this afternoon. A friend suggested trapping the cable in the outer by fitting a plastic bush tightly to the lower end of the inner after repacking it with graphite powder. This theoretically means that if there is a catch point in the outer, the inner cable only snags and jumps one or two "threads" rather than winding into the outer until the tension overcomes the snag and the inner snaps back. I can report that the theory is correct and my speedo is now pretty stable albeit reading a bit slow. I have a new cable on order from JRW but this is likely to take a few weeks.
Anyway to the electrical problem. After fitting the instruments for the final time the indicator lamps on the dash started both flashing weakly whenever I indicated left or right. The external lights are still working correctly. If I earth one of the cases that hold the bulbs, it seemed that all returned to normal. So as a temporary fix I soldered an extra wire to one of the cases and earthed it on the speedo. However although the lamps were flashing properly the left and right have become reversed. I am quite sure of this as when I pulled the whole panel off some time ago I labelled all the wires, switches and so on. The lamp that is now flashing when I indicate right is labelled "left". Easy fix, swap the positions, temporarily.
This has got to be something simple that I have disturbed, any suggestions?
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jan 10, 2021 13:07:23 GMT
What type of flasher unit is fitted?
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Post by 3litrekiwi on Jan 10, 2021 17:43:50 GMT
The original round aluminium can type. What are the options?
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