Authenticity A Bit Controversial

[johnwp5bcoupe]

As someone who is trying to restore my P5b Coupe to "LOOK" like it came off the production line I was a bit confused at the results of the best P5b at Wimpole Hall. There were a several clean honest cars on show and well done to all it was a good day, however the car that won was "a lovely car" in most respects apart from all the Bling Bling Chrome under the bonnet and on the dash! it never rolled off the line like that so why would it be concidered as a production example! or am I being a bit pedantic and "Bling" is in and forget about being authentic ?

[Phil Nottingham]

Not all its your car so restore how you want not as others may want - I like to as factory restorations where feasible but subject to safety overides eg radial tyres and decent lights

[David]

Agree with Phil, I prefer an authentic look, but do have a sneaking admiration for those that go that bit further.

[johnwp5bcoupe]

I agree with your comments Phil safety as far as rubber and lights is a different matter to either Restoring or Customising! to restore means to "build up again" "renew" not alter perhaps a few neon lights, 500w ICE or computerised jacking! to be serious I just felt sorry for the guys who turned up in a clean,origional SAFE, honest motor!

[glennr]

Good to see you there John at Wimpole Hall. It was not my cup of tea either but I have to admire the amount of work that he has put into it. Maybe they could have another award for "Best non original P5(B)" I wonder how how some owners find the time to take it that far? Good luck with your project. I have some furry dice for you should you need them. . I took mine out today for 45mins and it was magic. Took her through Biggleswade town centre and the surrounding areas, temp guage stayed on "N" throughout the run. What a pleasure to drive! ;D

[Phil Nottingham]

Another thing that unfortunately overides authenticity but purely for economic and trouble free purposes is fitting a stainless steel exhaust. None of these, though they certainly vary, are as quiet as the original Rover mild steel one, but they do burble really well with the V8 versions and once done will last for many years until the packing blows out through the tail pipes.

The Rover centre section of my current V8 has just started to blow so I will fit the remaining stainless section I had fitted to our previous saloon.

I always seem to be doing exhausts time and time again!

[johnwp5bcoupe]

Yes it was good to meet up with you at last Glenn I have put a "Chrome Pegg" through my windscreen for my "furry dice" no mirror yet! but you wont see them for my Black Windows. I agree with a none standard class Glenn! There is not a lot of effort or time in chrome you just leave it and pick it up! a lot more work in rubbing down priming and painting1 I think Phil's Turbo has blown his exhaust it could have been the Nitro? own up Phil wich one? if SS had been more cost effective in the 60's Phil they may have been fitted as standard!

[Phil Nottingham]

Cost effectiveness was not a Rover consideration - if you could afford to buy one new you could afford to have it serviced and to replace the exhaust every 4 years as with all other motorists of that time.

Neat unleaded 95 octane is perhaps too much in V8's

Stainless was far too noisy for ROVER standards like radial tyres! I will have stainless on al my Rovers except the Land Rover which is so cheap it is not cost effective with stainless

[lagain]

I think the voting at Wimpole Hall was by self judging, so 'the people spoke'
Authenticity is a personal choice but it seems silly not to take advantage of developments that have occured since P5 production finished.
The last time I had a mild steel back box it lasted 18 months so I fitted a Langfords stainless system, that must be about 25 years ago and all I have had to do since is polish it with autosol !
Electronic ignition is beneficial and turning my cooling system into a sealed one with a blank cap on the radiator and the pressure cap on an expansion bottle put an end to air locks. Incidentaly if when you accelerate hard you can hear a rumbling noise from the heater, that is air.

[Smallfry]

Oh dear.......As usual my view seems different to most others.

If you have an "original" award, it should be for just that. i.e. original, as in unmolested or restored. No repainting of brackets etc. etc. and anyone who has managed to keep a car in good original condition is a hero in my eyes. Anything other than that, however, is not "original", and in any case, once the standard specification has been deviated from, for whatever reason, the vehicle is then "customised".

A restored vehicle is not the same as an original vehicle either, as it will doubtlessly have some improved materials used in the job, or incorporate some sort of modifications, no matter how small, which actually make it "customised". The other thing that gets up my nose about restoration, is when some owner sticks his thumbs in his lapels, sticks his nose in the air, puffs out his chest, and proudly proclaims "he" has restored the vehicle, when what he has actually done, is paid various other people to do it for him. He has done absolutely nothing, and certainly deserves no sort of recogition or award. I would much rather see it go to someone who has burned a lot of midnight oil, and skinned his knuckles doing it. A far more worthy recipient IMO, even though the standard of work might not be quite so good.

Personally, I dont give a hoot what changes a car has had, as long as it has been done tastefully, and executed well, as long as the vehicle is still recognisable in the state in which it was conceived. (I do not mean bl**dy silly great big wheel arch extensions or having a coffee table bolted to the boot lid)

As for "concours" events..........lets not even go there
Only "customised" cars ever win these events, as no car ever came out of a factory in the state that the winners of these competitions are...........the whole thing is just a farce.

Anyway, thats enough nit picking, and before you all would like to see me strung up, the whole point of this post is.........lets have a bit more togetherness, and less sour grapes and critisism of other peoples efforts. We cant all like or have the same things, or there would not be enough of it to go round ! Vive la difference, and try to keep the cars in existance, and be used.

[Kev]

Christ !!!!! surely it's about keeping the car on the road and using them .So many people drag there cars out to do 1 or 2 shows a year and moan about other cars that don't have the right tyres on etc,..........so what its at a show,not been bangered,stored in a lock up for 30yrs,it's being used and enjoyed. Why do so many people get hung up on originallity.............and the big thing is not every owner has a lot of money to throw at the car and makes the best he/she can out of it.
Anyway it's early morning and ive had my say, no doubt comments will be made by the purist police.
Big Kev.
PS. go on stick some alloys on, you know you want to.

[johnwp5bcoupe]

Nice bit of "Passion" in your comments Smallfry I agree with a lot you say and Big Kev comments are noted and will be taken down and will be given in evidence! My main reason for raising the topic was I overheard a few guys talking saying I use my car every day how can I compete with that? and to be fair if a guy is using his car each and every day for transport he is a true Classic Enthusiast in every way and should be given a pat on the back, then there are others like me who have spent years renovating (still) an old friend to what it used to be like! others who tinker as a hobby and use the car on high days and at Rover meets the common factor being as Big Kev says to keep the cars on the road and off the track. BUT to be fair to all who attend a show there should be different classes so each and every one is in fair competition with a car of similar merits! to add radials, improve lighting etc is a step to wards safety! fitting a SS exhaust is common sense in fact anything that improves the running/efficiency and is in the style of the original component is a step forward to "Bling" a motor with chrome isn't. At Wimpole the BIS car I believe was a P4 that must say something? if there were classes like :- Customised/Concourse, Restored(in keeping with originality) Unrestored and Working Car (supported by mileage proof MOT?) it would make fair competition and stop the wheel kickers!! and fence sitters!! We met some lovely ladies I took my wife along who enjoyed the day and their comments were amusing similar to my wifes well it keeps him out of "mischief" gives him something to do but what they don't know is it's peaceful in our own little world!

[PatMcCoy]

Well said
I cant throw money at it all day
As long as they are still going, does it really matter if they have changes/mods etc

[Deleted]

Any surplus "bling" (additional chrome or over polished brass, copper or aluminium) does not appeal to me at all.
Such treatment to my mind renders these cars as CUSTOM CARS.
What the owners do to their cars is of course entirely up to them, if they can afford all the chrome, let them get on with it!

[Kev]

All i will say is, its going to make The National very interesting.
I hope we get a record turn out this year, go on dust the old girl off and bring her along........................and the car. Big Kev.

[Phil Nottingham]

Well I use either one of my P5's every day and they both show the scars of doing so - they were made tyo be used not looked or cosseted. Jobs are being done time & time over again.

However thats my choice and I like it that. If someone does up or pays to have it done upits their choice and if they are afraid to get it wet or leave it unattended or drive in in traffic because it overheats then again it up them. It take all sorts and it would be rather boring if every one was the same anyway.

Decided not to make this years National as its rather too far and I would need to take it in stages which is rather inconvenient for me at this present time for a variety of reasons.

I think I have never missed a National before wherever its been held and its no reflection on George P. I do hope it all goes well anyway and all sorts of cars from the ropey to the customised to the concours get there but only under the own steam unless cannot make it on their own wheels because they are being restored.

[richardzf]

Well hello again. I've finally figured out how to use this 'new' website.....
To keep everyone happy, I suggest the following classes at this year's Leonardslea National:
P5 Saloon mk.1 Concours
P5 Saloon mk.1a Concours
P5 Saloon mk.2 Concours
P5 Coupe mk.2 Concours
P5 Salloon mk.3 Concours
P5 Coupe mk.3 Concours
P5 Convertible Concours
P5 Saloons 2.4 & 2.6 litre Concours
P5B Saloon (series A) Concours
P5B Coupe (series A) Concours
P5B Saloon (series B) Concours
P5B Coupe (series B) Concours
P5B Saloon (series C) Concours
P5B Coupe (seriesC) Concours
P5B Convertible Concours
All the above would be judged by appointed arbitors.
The n there would be all the above in 'CONDITION' voted for by the lay-members.
Also
P5 Saloon mk.1 Modified
P5 Saloon mk.2 Modified
etc. etc.
P5 Saloon mk.1 Customised
P5 mk.2 Saloon Customised
etc, etc.
Then there would be classes for Best Original and Best Restored....Then,
Best other Rover
Best non-Rover
Furthest travelled
Naturally each class would have first, second and third awards.
The beauty of this proposal is that absolutely everyone attending the National Rally would be guaranteed an award ! !

Conclusion: Read Big Kev's comments above.

[Roy of the Rovers]

A lot of your opinions regarding what is and is not acceptable are valid but only in a judged competition. Aren't we talking about a car in a self judging situation? If so then anything goes surely? I have hear dof controversy in the past about the National 'Concourse' to get over this you would have to issue strict rules on what is and is not acceptable and inforce them.

If I'm ever asked to assist with judging on a stalemate situation (and I am) you have to be sensible. If its a 'concourse' then it should be to original spec (safety improvements would be overlooked like rear seat belts, but LPG conversion would not), if it is a 'best p5b' then I don't care how much chrome there is under the bonnet, the car in best 'overall' condition would get my vote. In my mind if a part was chromed instead of painted I would view it as if it was painted for this type of judging. Compared to the standard car.

There will always be debate about judging but the answer is simple- make the rules clear at the beginning- and judge by them.

Smallfry- as much as I want to I can't agree with your narrow view of original. How can you say a car is no longer original because it had a rear wing resprayed when some kid scratched a 3 foot line into it? It would then lose out to the car next to it that is similar in condition but has a big rusty patch in the middle of the door, but because it hasn't been fixed it is 'original'. Surely original has always meant 'to original specification'? You have to have leeway as you can't buy many original rover parts anymore but you can get pattern ones. Chroming a bracket is as acceptable as painting it in my book but an SDI brake conversion is no longer original as it is the wrong part!

I also disagree with your opinion about cheque book restorers. Of course they have a right to be proud, they have saved a car and brought it up to a fine standard by working their backsides off to get the money to pay the restoration man to do it. Not everyone has the skill to change spark plugs let alone restore a P5 so why the hell shouldn't they be proud of their vehicle? What they shouldn't do is claim they did the work themselves but that is another story.

[Deleted]

Can a restored vehicle ever be considerd as 'original' ?
An original vehicle (to my mind) is either: one that has never been restored or one that has been restored to the same specification and level as the day the car left the Rover factory.

I have to smile at adverts claiming the car (any car) is original except for respray, retrim etc.

Anyway, would these 'original' vehicle still have the 1960's air in the tyres or the original battery? I would bet not.
Just enjoy owning, restoring and driving your Rover because at the end of the day these cars were meant to be driven and enjoyed.
Hats off to Phil and others who use only P5's as their only form of transport - Well Done to them.


Ady

[Kev]

Richard, welcome to the forum,
Big Kev. ;D

[lagain]

Sorry that Phil is not able to make it to the national this year but being so far south it is a very long way for many. My trip to Peterborough cost about £80 in petrol, although I did get stuck in the 'fast lane' !!!
I don't see how any of our cars can maintain their originality after at least 30 years . Bits wear out and have to be replaced and many items now are unavailable and have to be replaced with the next best thing. One example; my boot rubber looks as if it has been chewed by a very hungry mouse, so I bought a replacement. It was just a length of rubber with no moulded corners and did not begin to fit, so the old one is still on the car and when I wash it the water comes in the boot. The same with the door rubbers so I have stuck an extra piece of rubber along the top of the door to stop the rain coming in.
So while my rubbers are original many concours judges would critisize them. At one show they were looking at the front of my car, pointed at where I have 'touched in' stone chips collected over 108000miles and walked away, but my front wings are the originals with the paint applied on February 27th 1971, and I don't care!
At the moment we have 3 cars entered for the concours which I (and another) will be judging, and originality may be against restored, the winner will be the best car.
As far as radial tyres are concerned I would not say that they are a safety factor, I have always had crossplys which are far better suited to the car, but the last set cost a whopping £150 each and they only do about 12000 miles, so radials are the only option for many.

[Smallfry]

Roy.........

ANY car that does not have its original spark plugs should be crushed

Seriously though, I actually agree with everything you say ! I was just making the point about the use of the word "original" in its truest sense...........if you understand what I mean.

Its the use of it in regards to "concours" judging, and the pretentiousness that goes with it that really irks me.......in the same way that owners who say "I've" restored the car, when in fact someone else has, does too.

Of course no car is truly "original" in the truest sense, but I would like to see "concours" awards go to excellent condition (and hopefully unrestored ) cars that are actually used and have a patina, in preference to a "show days only" car.

[johnwp5bcoupe]

I agree smallfry I would give a car that was in excellent honest condition more points than a car that has been put into some restorer 1000's spent on BLING under the bonnet or wherever just to be "the best on show", after spending like a lot of guys hours and hours (RESTORING that word again!) a car to original condition (original as in as near as possible to what it came out the factory looking like!) only then do you know what's involved. I still can't see how chrome can be considered a modern alternative to paint whats wrong with paint! I know if you go to a RR show the one that often wins is sometimes showing the red oxide through the paint this in preference to the one just turned out of the restorers perhaps a lesson could be learnt there? back to fitting my "POOR MAN'S RR" rear screen!

[p5tgc]

All the arguments posted on this subject have reinforced my long held view that the best way to handle judging is to base it on "Which car would you like to be driving home", thus avoiding the pitfalls of originality and customisation, it streamlines everything!

How can we consider basing a judgment on "originality" when there is so little factual information around about how our cars were supposed to be finished? Just consider the recent threads on this board regarding the factory applied coachlines and sill trims! If such visibly obvious and important trim details cannot be nailed to a factory specification what chance the more obscure details?

[johnwp5bcoupe]

Some sense to what you say Trevor about which car would you take home? but there are enough details to get some where "NEAR" what the car should look like there is a load of archive pictures and there are some cars which have original details! the coach lines you mention were an indication of wanting the correct details and a barn found coupe sorted it out,there are a lot of guys on this forum who know their stuff and what looks like a good stab at restoring to originality so the argument about "deliberately" deviating from paint to chrome or none standard colors should/would stand out a mile to someone judging. I am still of the opinion to be fair to the guys who travel at great cost there should be a broader spectrum of classes to enter! back to fitting rear screen a pain in the B** job.