Borg Warner DG 150-M Automatic Transmission

[mangan]

Hello everyone!

I´m a new member of this forum and I´m located in Sweden. I have a low mileage unrestored -65 3 Litre Coupé. I´m just about to embark on the rather daunting task of restoring the DG 150-M Automatic Trans. After carefully reviewing the workshop manual I have found that I will be needing a special tool for reassembling the torque converter on to the transmission. The tool is, BW5 "Splines aligning fixture". I would be very thankful for any tips leading to were I can find one, either for sale or for rent.

Thanks in advance,
Magnus Karlsson
Sweden

[kaiser]

I think you have a DG 250 gearbox, which is an early Borg Warner box with lock up torque converter.
(I have now been checking under my own car, it is a DG 150. Which is a bit of a surprise).
I have been told they should be quite strong boxes, but I have no experience. My Early Coupe has one, but I have never driven it.
It would be nice to know why you want to rebuild the box, what are your problems?, and if you go ahead, it would be nice with a detailed report with lots of photos.
I think the tools as well as the spares might be difficult to come by, but let's hope for the best.
Spares for the 150: www.automaticchoice.es/Catalogo%20AC/Catalogue/bw_dg.pdf

[harvey]

Dec 3, 2014 9:44:22 GMT mangan said:

After carefully reviewing the workshop manual I have found that I will be needing a special tool for reassembling the torque converter on to the transmission. The tool is, BW5 "Splines aligning fixture". I would be very thankful for any tips leading to were I can find one, either for sale or for rent.

There's one for sale on ebay at the moment.


www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-BORG-WARNER-AUTO-GEARBOX-ALIGNMENT-TOOL-CHURCHILL-B5-18G506-/231406401545?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item35e0e57809

[mangan]

kaiser,

The trans slips on all gears. Probably due to leaking seals. Thanks for the tip about spares! I will embark on the rebuild, since the car is in an exceptional unrestored condition and the trans is the only real problem.

harvey,

Many thanks for the tip about the tool on ebay. It´s currently listed as only shipping within the UK. I have inquired about shipping to Sweden and hope that will be possible. This is a chance too good to miss.

[johnwp5bcoupe]

Dec 4, 2014 6:42:13 GMT mangan said:

kaiser,

The trans slips on all gears. Probably due to leaking seals. Thanks for the tip about spares! I will embark on the rebuild, since the car is in an exceptional unrestored condition and the trans is the only real problem.

harvey,

Many thanks for the tip about the tool on ebay. It´s currently listed as only shipping within the UK. I have inquired about shipping to Sweden and hope that will be possible. This is a chance too good to miss.

If you get stuck on shipping PM me

[kaiser]

This is just thinking out of the box, and I might be totally wrong, but if the box slips in all gears, could it not be a problem with oil pressure?
And if it is, enough oil?, enough flow (a blocked filter, perhaps) or a problem with the pump??.

If it is any of that, maybe you can get at it without taking the box out?

[harvey]

Dec 4, 2014 17:47:09 GMT kaiser said:

This is just thinking out of the box, and I might be totally wrong, but if the box slips in all gears, could it not be a problem with oil pressure?
And if it is, enough oil?, enough flow (a blocked filter, perhaps) or a problem with the pump??.

If it is any of that, maybe you can get at it without taking the box out?

It could be low fluid, and as it's so easy to check it must be worth eliminating before going any further. The level is checked with the engine running in "L" IIRC, so be careful.

DG boxes have loads of pressure take off points, where the pressure to individual components, and the pump pressure, can all be checked individually to give better fault diagnosis. The BW35 only has one point, so it's pretty useless in that respect.

As for the converter alignment tool, it would be nice thing to have (in fact I was offered one years ago and turned it down, I now wish I hadn't) but the job can be done without it.

[mangan]

Thanks everybody for your replies! What a helpful forum, it feels great to be onboard.


johnwp5bcoupe thanks for the offer but I was in contact with the vendor and he is willing to ship to Sweden.


kaiser and harvey The trans had been overfilled by a previous owner and started slipping after that. I think that it blew some seals because of this and it has been sitting for around 20 years since. So I think it would be wise to take things apart to check everything and renew wearing parts. I think that I will dismantle the engine as well thinking of how long it has been sitting

[mangan]

I have now pulled the engine and transmission. I have fabricated a special stand that allows the unit to stand in a vertical position as, according to the workshop manual, this will facilitate reassembly. I attach an image of the stand with the unit. If you are interested in seeing more photos please click the following link: healeyspecialists.com/low-mileage-rover-p5-coupe-for-sale/

I believe that the engine was painted white, does this apply to the gearbox as well? Does anyone have the paint code? Thanks in advance...

[Phil Nottingham]

Not white anywhere - bare castings except for Rocker covers/heads etc which were grey and silver steel sumps

[kaiser]

Beautiful car, nice stand, nice pictures. Much admired!

I'm looking forward to this, as I plan to refurbish my engine and box.

So waiting for more photos!

[enigmas]

That's a fabulous engine tilt stand Magnus. It's a wonder you didn't design it to rotate along the crankshaft axis as well.

[djm16]

My DG box is painted grey. I cannot confirm that it came from the factory that way, it may have been rebuilt and painted then. Note the way the paint covers the bolt heads too.



The engine block I am pretty sure was the usual Dick egg blue. Mine was buried under a foot of oil and road dirt.



.

[Phil Nottingham]

Sorry thought we were on P5B's!  No paint at all on both DG's of ours (1964) - blocks also look bare but paint may have all been cleaned off. Tappet cover and sumps black - filter box silver (black on pre-Weslake's)

Duck egg "blue" was a standard Rover/ Land - Rover engine colour for years post war but the shade varied from light grey to pale green with pale or greeny blue in between   There is no code and you will have to match up if you want to keep to the shade used then

Your 65 Coupe looks very good indeed

[mangan]

Thank you everyone for your replies and kind words!

I will try and post more photos as the work carries on. When I posted an image in my previous post a thumbnail appeared, which has to be clicked on in order to view the full resolution version. I notice that some of you have managed to post the full resolution photo directly. How can I do that?

[kaiser]

A couple of points.

I will check my engine and box in my p5 3 litre, they are covered in oil, so somewhere under that I can see colours, if any are there!
My P4 110, with the same engine (just shorter stroke 2.6 litre) is grey/blue on the block. The manual box is unpainted aluminium.
I have several original brochures, where the engine and box can be seen on the sub frame. Most of these are drawings, and Rover, with other English manufacturers, took liberal artistic license with these drawings. A MK X Jaguar could be made to look slim, and if that was the case, the Rovers could too, and were! So the colours of the drawings must be taken with a truck load of salt!
As for your beautiful P5, it really looks stunning. I think the clearance over the wheel in the front is rather substantial, so I wonder if it is a car before they lowered the ride height by one inch.?
I also, from your web site, notice the well equipped garage, and the stunning Healeys.

[kaiser]

Jan 1, 2015 17:02:13 GMT mangan said:

Thank you everyone for your replies and kind words!

I will try and post more photos as the work carries on. When I posted an image in my previous post a thumbnail appeared, which has to be clicked on in order to view the full resolution version. I notice that some of you have managed to post the full resolution photo directly. How can I do that?

upload the picture to a file host like "tinypic" tinypic.com/?t=postupload
you get an URL that you copy then insert with the "insert image" button above, 7th from the left.

and paste in the required field, add text if required.

As you can see, it is a good idea to turn the picture first!!


When you insert it in the :[img src="http://i61.tinypic.com/2uo6vr6.jpg" src="" alt="slam panel and corner re-constructed"]

I actually think your series of pictures worked very well, how did you do that?

[kaiser]

Here is another try with a rotated picture.
When you upload resize the picture as required. This is 800x600 if I remember correctly



Success, just deleted the last string in the code    src="http://" alt=" "  so that the string ends with jpg"]

[djm16]

Below is the code to get my second picture. The picture is stored in photobucket. The seventh icon from the R will insert the correct code automatically.

{img alt="" style="max-width:100%;" src="http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n590/djm160/P5%20engine/blockdirty_zpscf4d447a.jpg"}

[kaiser]

Jan 3, 2015 5:49:45 GMT djm16 said:

Below is the code to get my second picture. The picture is stored in photobucket. The seventh icon from the R will insert the correct code automatically.

{img alt="" style="max-width:100%;" src="http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n590/djm160/P5%20engine/blockdirty_zpscf4d447a.jpg"}

So you are about as successful in getting a picture as I am?
I seem to have sorted the problem, by deleting all code after the last jpg" so my string ends in jpg"]
So try and edit your post, press the BBCode button at the bottom, which will give you your original string before anything was added. then clean up all the sting that has to do with inserting of text (lots of " and src)etc and try preview, if not successful delete a bit more or different, and see if successful.
If yes, save changes.

[kaiser]

Here is a try! Deleted " alt=" ". So there! Fixed fer ya!!

[kaiser]

link to the pictures posted in the above post.

and click on arrow for all the other pictures! (there is a slideshow arrow as well, and the pictures will just run on their own!)

Excellent photos. Lots of corrosion although the valves look like new!
ANDD an old P4 being restored!!

More!!!

Just regarding the inlet manifold. The corrosion is significant if you only use a paper gasket. The sealing is complex as numerous water and air passages are present.
I have successfully sealed my 110 Weslake inlet manifold in a similar condition by just using Victor Reinz Rinzosil silicone. That stuff is brilliant!
The rocker cover on the side of the engine for adjusting the valves normally uses a cork seal. Here I cleaned the surroundings with acetone, applied a thick bead of silicone and left the cover to cure with the seal against a piece of baking paper. This is about right weight to not squeeze the silicone out, and leaves a rubber layer about 3 mm thick evenly on the cover. It is re-useable and has not leaked a drop of oil!
the inlet gasket I bolted lightly and left to cure for 2 hours and then bolted tight. 100% leak proof.
I will post some pics in a followup.

[kaiser]

Rocker side cover cleaned, painted and curing on a bead of Victor Reinz silicone.



Just as a note, this method is only used where the cover has to be taken off and fitted again regularly (for valve checks).
Where the assembly is permanent, like on the inlet manifold, the water pump, the front timing cover and even the EXHAUST manifold, gearbox, diff....... you name it, I assemble after applying the silicone, nip up lightly and evenly, and let cure, then tighten.
I am sure you can tighten straight away, but I feel the liquid stuff will get squeezed out. By letting it cure, you have a thicker layer of "solid" silicone, and tighten against that.
And yes, the exhaust can be sealed like this. It has run for about a year. Not a squeak!! And, if someone tells you it can't be done, he does not know what he is talking about.!

[enigmas]

As much as silicone for automotive use appears to be a universal fix-all, be aware that if some of it dislodges internally and ends up being drawn into the oil pump and/or into any of the oil galleys it could initiate a death rattle and some expensive repairs to your engine. I use various types of silicone for other purposes but never in situations where it can enter the lubrication system of an engine. Anaerobic sealants such as Loctite 515, 518, 510 are suitable/professional alternatives. (You pay a bit more but the products last and are space age quality)

The Loctite link is below.

www.loctite.com.au/gasketing-4055.htm

Note: The FAQ and product guide is at the bottom of the page.

[kaiser]

Jan 14, 2015 5:33:10 GMT enigmas said:

As much as silicone for automotive use appears to be a universal fix-all, be aware that if some of it dislodges internally and ends up being drawn into the oil pump and/or into any of the oil galleys it could initiate a death rattle and some expensive repairs to your engine. I use various types of silicone for other purposes but never in situations where it can enter the lubrication system of an engine. Anaerobic sealants such as Loctite 515, 518, 510 are suitable/professional alternatives. (You pay a bit more but the products last and are space age quality)

The Loctite link is below.

www.loctite.com.au/gasketing-4055.htm

Note: The FAQ and product guide is at the bottom of the page.

I just want to tell you I know Loctite. I have had some good results with that too, especially with their locking liquid. When that has been said, I have never come across ANY product that comes close ito quality to the one I am talking about. In simple terms, try it, and you will see.
The problem of stuffing of oil ways are typically confined to overuse and wrong materials. Although the problem is real, it is easy to avoid. I would never use a thing like blue Hylomar on a sump as an example, it never sets properly, which is a problem in this case (pun intended!). I would happily use the Victor Reinz here, the texture is completely different.