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Post by enigmas on Nov 5, 2021 10:27:06 GMT
Recently Mike (of Mike'S-a-loon on this forum) asked me whether I'd be interested in recommissioning his P5B saloon (as seen below). Although Mike is currently domiciled OS, his saloon is in storage 5 mins from my home. I thought about it for a while and based upon what I was initially told about the vehicle, basically a change of lubricants and filters, having 4 new tyres fitted, removing and replacing the complete power steering system after it had been fully refurbished (by the competent machinist/technician who originally did my system back in 2007) I agreed. This was based on the proviso that I shared the work with my friend, neighbour and vintage/classic car restorer Tony. Neither of us are spring chickens so sharing the work and being able to use Tony's carport as a work station made sense. Well today, I came back home looking as though I'd fallen into the la brea tar pits. Tony and I spent quite a while sorting the ignition system (tick that) then went on to check the lubrication system before we'd fire up the V8. Unfortunately the very black and thin oil and the sludge that resided under the rocker covers is frightening. This aspect was unexpected. Removing the distributor and attempting to prime the oil pump (see video below) failed. I've never experienced this (even without packing the gears with vaseline) as the drill will easily spin the gears at 1500 - 2000 rpm...more than enough to pick up oil and pressurize the system. So something may be amiss with the pump or the oil feed galleries. Removing the pressure relief valve (spring and cup) then using the priming tool resulted in my newly tarred appearance. So oil is semingly being pumped but not pressurized to the oil galleries? John W, Phil N, or anyone else au fait with these engine's, please chime in here to help resolve this oil pump issue. Here's a few pix of Mike's car parked at my friend's home. The Engine Bay
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Post by enigmas on Nov 5, 2021 12:29:34 GMT
I've just pulled up a link to one of my youtube videos when I was doing some work on the SD1 Rover V8 engine in my MG Magnette Coupe project car. The purpose is to illustrate what should occur when the oil pump and the lubrication system is primed using this device.
Note, that initially the drill spins very fast without load and then loads up significantly as the engine's galleries and lubrication system is pressurized. Oil will be seen issuing from the rocker gear.
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Post by Mike’S-a-loon on Nov 5, 2021 12:42:09 GMT
Vince, thanks mate. I truly was expecting this to be a straightforward recommissioning. Hopefully you can resolve the oil issue without getting divorced or banned from the laundry!
It's great that you're sharing this adventure with the forum members, the video is particularly useful as a teaching aid and record for other people.
Feel free to share as much about my car as you like, I will try to hide my embarrassment... in my defence, it has been basically laid up since 2015, and had been entrusted to a Rover "expert" to do a lot of mechanical work just prior to that.
I am happy the car is in the right hands.
Thanks mate,
Mike.
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Post by enigmas on Nov 5, 2021 13:02:45 GMT
It's not really the news you want to hear Mike and it certainly caught me off guard. After doing a bit of surfing on the WWW I found this post www.roversd1.nl/sd1web/oil.html that deals primarily with the Rover SD1 V8 and 6 cyl. I found this particular method (below) of interest, as I've never heard of it before, but if it works, the oil pump won't need to come off. Pumping Oil into the Pump Drain the oil and unscrew the oil filter Take a small bottle with a pipe that connects to the top of the bottle Fill the bottle with oil and stick the pipe into the threaded part of the pump that the oil filter screws into. Squeeze the bottle and press oil into the pump. After some time oil will come out of the other hole of the filter mounting. Keep squeezing for 20 seconds Replace the pre-filled oil filter and top up the oil Start the engine and check for oil pressure and leaks.Using ATF as a Cleaning Detergent.This method may also be useful in loosening/removing internal sludge if a full pulldown, strip and clean is not planned or economically viable. If your engine is used for short distances, or you expect a lot of sludge and such inside the engine, you can try the following trick. Before changing the oil. Drain some engine oil (about 1 litre) and top up the oil level with 1 litre of ATF oil (Automatic Transmission Fluid). ATF oil has very good cleaning properties and does a good job of internally cleaning the engine. Leave it about 100 miles in the engine. Then drain all the oil and refill with normal engine oil. It will certainly help a lot. PS. A clogged oil filter may also be a contributing factor?
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Nov 5, 2021 15:03:26 GMT
That black stuff can be deadly and certainly block oil galleries - if oil is being pumped without pressure (how much there should be quite a volume?) through the valve then it is pump - if pressure is there it will be blocked galleries or perhaps both?
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Post by enigmas on Nov 6, 2021 9:04:01 GMT
The primary focus for Tony and I today was to sort out the lack of lubrication or rather lack of pressure to the oil galleries from the oil pump. The engine given what can be seen within the rocker cover is seriously sludged with dried black oil. To make matters more stressful the oil pressure gauge doesn't function. The saloon has at some time been fitted with a Coupe binnacle and gauges, so the oil pressure sender and gauge may not be compatible. On the plus side, the ammeter functions and shows charge. Oil Pump. When the lower section of the oil pump was removed and the valves checked, the pressure bypass valve for the oil filter cannister was in sideways. I don't think this caused the priming issue but would certainly have led to oil largely bypassing the filter. After the pump was refitted, packed with petroleum jelly and primed again, the lubrication system built pressure as verified by the priming tool loading up. I believe a big part of the problem was the extremely thin oil that was in the engine. Here are a few pix and a very brief video of the engine running. The ignition timing was majorly over advanced for petrol in the order of 20+°. This was indicated initially by the engine kicking back against the starter motor. Existing engine oil drained. Adding Peak oil. This company is beginning to rival Penrite with regard to oil for Classic cars. It also has a high zinc content. The base of the oil pump. In quite good shape. The hardest part of removing the pump was finding a suitable socket for the well worn 12 point flange head cap screw bolts. (These may need to be replaced) New products. Note the sideways fitted oil filter bypass valve. Expand the image and look into the port. The freshen pump base plate. A very brief video of the engine running being gravity fed petrol from a small remote fuel bottle, just as the fuel container runs out.
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Post by Mike’S-a-loon on Nov 6, 2021 10:18:51 GMT
Bloody excellent news! Thanks Vince and Tony.
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Post by enigmas on Nov 6, 2021 10:32:19 GMT
Tomorrow Mike we'll check the HT leads for resistance and or open circuit, clean the plugs (I've got a small sandblasting cabinet, if needed) and also check where the ignition timing is set, both static and dynamic. Then, time permitting I'll check the air flow balance of the SUs with my carb gauge.
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Post by Mike’S-a-loon on Nov 6, 2021 10:35:55 GMT
Sounds good.
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Post by Sam Bee on Nov 6, 2021 12:42:07 GMT
Received wisdom is that any Rover V8 with oil in it that colour is highly likely to be knackered and in need of complete renovation, I am afraid to say. That said they will continue to run in a dreadfull worn state. Easiest way to check is to take the inlet manifold off and check the camshaft lobes for wear, that gives a good idea of the state of the rest of it. If oil is changed every 3,000 miles or at least once a year they can do huge mileages. But the original design timing chains start to stretch after 30,000 miles. I show some examples on an engine that I have recently overhauled (bought for renovation) and which was still running and 'driveable'.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Nov 6, 2021 15:54:06 GMT
You like a challenge Vince Did you drop the sump?
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Post by enigmas on Nov 6, 2021 23:14:58 GMT
Hi Sam and John, actually I'm not interested in a challenge of this sort at all and I fully acknowledge your views about long in the tooth Rover V8s, lack of oil changes and black sludge Sam. I still have too many projects of my own to finish including the rear PS rear door on my own Rover. I only took it on due to proximity and the proviso that my friend Tony be involved in assisting with the recommissioning. No I haven't removed the sump nor will I John, as then the scope of the work has gotten well out of hand and truly beyond the original arrangement. The scope of the original job was to change fluids/filters lubricants, fit a new set of tyres check the engine tune and get it running. A weekender job...I don't think so! Even the power steering replacement is an extra. That has to be put off for the time being whilst we attempt to sort the engine. Mike informs me that a Rover 'Specialist' had put in quite a lot of mechanical work in on the car and presented him with a hefty bill. The front ball joints (upper and lower) have been replaced and there's evidence of front suspension work...but we'll see once it's driveable. Getting back to the engine. I'll see what can be done, but were not about to dismantle it...that's a job too far. We do have it running, there are no untoward internal knocks, the hydraulic tappets weren't rattling, so there must oil pressure/lubrication reaching these components and the engine didn't blow any smoke. But it's current state of tune or lack of, is terrible. It also didn't seize, so that's a plus. Tony and I will focus on the engine today and see if we can improve it's state of tune. I'd like to get it hot, allow it to cool and then take a compression test. There'll be a report back on our findings later tonight...Oz time. PS. I think the oil filter had been bypassed for a considerable time.
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Post by enigmas on Nov 7, 2021 5:58:10 GMT
Thankyou gentleman for all the replies in relation to the reserve fuel tap and its location on a P5B. 👍 We've located these components. Mike the fuel pump is a facet type. All good and well as far as that goes, they're a reliable pump. Engine Update. I removed the spark plugs this morning. They were all beavily carboned up and would have been tracking. They were cleaned in my sandblasting cabinet, gapped and refitted. Apart from the heavy sooting, they were not oiled up and virtually in as new condition as the electrodes showed no wear at all. Tony and I tweaked the carbs a bit, checked and adjusted the balance, checked the HT leads, backed off the distributor static advance and then readjusted the timing dynamically with a strobe light. Oil seems to be slowly working it's way to the rocker gear which is still heavily grunged up, but the longer the engine is run when up to temperature, the better it is responding. I'm certain that the thin, low viscosity and incorrect grade of oil as found in the engine wasn't benefitting it in any way. Here are a few pix and a current video of the engine running today...still from the small gravity fed fuel container. I wasn't aware of it at first but you may hear me yell at one point in the video below as I catch my head on the roof pillar. Ouch! The spark plugs as removed. A little comparison here. Carboned up plugs electrically track and don't fire properly. Note that they're sooted up but not oily. Cleaned and regapped plugs. The copper eze grease is for the threads.
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Post by djm16 on Nov 7, 2021 8:47:18 GMT
This comment is addressed to Mike. I fully understand and sympathise with Enigmas excess of projects of his own to finish. I am in much the same boat. So I am not suggesting you ask Enigmas to do additional work.
However, it would be good for the engine to have someone drop the sump and clean out the sludge which inevitably will be there. While there, checking one or two journals and big ends might not be a bad idea, before they wear through. Then run it for a bit with flushing oil? Change the oil every 500 miles with Diesel oil, at least until it no longer comes out black?
If the oil has been bypassing the oil filter for years, and the car has had many short runs, that might explain the heavy carbon deposits everywhere.
So how about paying a specialist garage somewhere to do that work?
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Post by Mike’S-a-loon on Nov 7, 2021 9:59:41 GMT
Vince and Tony, what can I say? I'm so happy that you've got the old boy running! Great news that you're happy with the motor, it has always been pretty solid but I was getting really worried this last long lay-up may have been a bridge too far for it. The car was my daily driver from 1996 until 2015 when I left the country, and only let me down once, despite being serviced by me as required and never really getting any serious mechanical tlc until 2015 when I suddenly when from dirt poor to not so dirt poor and tipped a fair pile of cash into it.
Djm16, yes mate, I agree completely that Vince has plenty of his own projects to be getting on with. This "little side project " for him is/was never intended to be more than a few days, and I don't want to impose on him too much. (That said, just quietly, don't tell him I said so, but can you think of anyone you would trust your Rover to more? I can't.)
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Nov 7, 2021 10:44:58 GMT
The problem with leaving the black stuff in is that some of it makes hard flakes which can block oilways. Remobal of sump and rocker covers to scrape it out helps a lot.
Some advise use of a high detergent diesel 20/50 oil which can be run in it for few hundred miles - it can be better than flushing oil that can dislodge large hard flakes to cause trouble
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Post by enigmas on Nov 7, 2021 11:15:42 GMT
Hi Phil, I fully understand the black sludge issue and yes it may need to get some TLC under the rocker covers to remove some of it and several frequent filter and oil changes when it's well up to temperature to clear it as much as possible.
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Post by enigmas on Nov 8, 2021 9:03:39 GMT
What's under the rocker covers? Well, without posting any pictures of what resided under the rocker covers Tony and I spent a good portion of the afternoon pulling off the rocker gear, removing the pushrods and cleaning these components. Fortunately I'd purchased a bunch of aerosol cans of degreaser for a related external task, but they certainly came in handy for these cleaning duties. I've included an after shot of the rocker gear cleaned, not surgically but now functional to highlight how tolerant these engines are with an absolute minimum of maintenance. Mike's been lucky. The rocker gear is still viable and is now allowing oil through it's formerly clogged galleries. Prior to starting and warming the engine, the rocker gear, shafts, pushrods and valve springs were liberally coated with Moreys Oil, a viscous, tacky, oil stabilizer. As it slowly warmed, engine oil eventually appeared and the hydraulic lifters started to quieten. Interestingly, when it was running and with the rocker covers still off, all the pushrods could be seen to be rotating. This indicates that the camshaft lobes are still viable. When new or freshly remanufactured, a camshaft's lobes are ground on a slight angle, this causes the lifter and the pushrod to rotate. If this doesn't occur, the camshaft and lifter is generally well worn and past their best. A few supplies A new heavy duty battery (810 CCA) and other related supplies were also purchased. The inside of one of the rocker covers as removed. The cleaned up rocker gear, still not pretty but now functional.
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Post by Mike’S-a-loon on Nov 8, 2021 11:31:47 GMT
Another great days work, thanks guys.
Vince, feel free to post the photos you sent me this morning, it may be useful for someone to be aware of what can happen when a car is left idle for years.
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Post by enigmas on Nov 8, 2021 11:54:13 GMT
Ok then Mike, will do. I think I was more surprised by Tony's reaction when he saw what resided under the rocker covers. It certainly is a bit of a shock, especially if you've never seen anything like that before apart from forlorn engines left lying about in the open at wrecking yards. Hard to believe that it would idle quite evenly on all 8 cylinders like that. Here is what we saw when the rocker covers were first removed. BEFORE AFTER The stamped steel cover (as seen in the top image) was not refitted when the rocker gear was replaced as it serves no real purpose. Just another item within the rocker cover to collect grunge. PS. It's truly amazing the difference a bit of "hoovering" can make.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Nov 8, 2021 17:24:00 GMT
It is usually jet black - brown signifies rust or silt!
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Post by enigmas on Nov 8, 2021 21:34:14 GMT
The grunge is a bit of a mix Phil. Perhaps there were periods when the engine barely warmed up, short runs and water vapour (contained within air on cold days) was unable to escape the internals of the engine and settled in the rocker cover where it condensed again. The only metal object up there that shows any real evidence of rust are the pressed tin covers/shrouds, positioned directly over the rocker gear.
Given the scope of the original task, that focused primarily on a change of fluids, filters and perhaps a tune, it never entered my mind to look under the rocker covers before attempting to start the engine. It did turn over freely on the starter with the ignition disabled.
So this is where we're currently at....the engine runs and has a functioning lubrication system again. I think quite a few oil and filter changes will be initially on the agenda once it's drivable. Get the engine up to running temperature and put some mileage under it's wheels.
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Post by enigmas on Nov 9, 2021 5:41:26 GMT
Today Tony and I focused on getting the fuel in the tank pumping forward and up to the carburettors. Some fettling was required with the fuel lines and the fuel reserve tap which was jambed. Then we moved onto the carburettors which were running quite lean with the engine requiring constant choke. The sooted plugs were probably due to the engine being run with the chokes continually applied. The rocker covers were refitted with new gaskets and the carburettor(s) air flow balance was checked once again. After this the car was tentatively motored back and forth on the driveway to check the transmission, steering and brakes. The BW35 needed a couple litres of ATF as drive disappeared on occasion. Time for a bit of a motor. We needed to turn the car about in the driveway so that the power steering components could be easier accessed. So why not check out the overall condition of the car's mechanicals with a short drive up our local street. Although power steering is fitted, it currently doesn't work. I was quite surprised how easily the car steers on the move with no operational power assistance. It drove quite well considering it's 5 year layup. I was somewhat cautious as I didn't know what to expect. Pleasantly surprised though, none of the wheels fell off and the car braked quite well too. See the second video below. Tony filmed me driving the car up our local street exiting from his driveway, around the block and back to his home. Note that a one point Tony states how the car sounds and is running, and then crashing, banging, rattling sounds are heard. These noises aren't from Mike's P5B, but from a plumber's truck and trailer coming up behind moment's later.
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Post by Mike’S-a-loon on Nov 9, 2021 6:45:45 GMT
WOW! You guys are bloody fantastic!
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Post by Mike’S-a-loon on Nov 9, 2021 6:49:44 GMT
It is interesting about the power steering. Its only at extremely low speeds that it is missed. In many ways I prefer it the way it is at highway speeds, it always felt a bit imprecise on the freeway when the PS was working. I guess that is why modern systems vary the assistance based on vehicle speed.
It does sound pretty good, the stainless exhaust gives a little bit of extra depth to the note.
You guys sound quite chuffed, I'm glad this hasn't made either of you miserable!
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