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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Dec 7, 2021 15:28:29 GMT
I use the same method Vince and my dad used it before me! a piece of straight wood and a piece of string and a couple of nails plus a bit of patience Total toe out 3.6mm is not too bad Vince? I would rather toe out than in! I am sure you could get it better break out the string :-)
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Dec 7, 2021 16:59:53 GMT
I never let tyre fitters or garage touch the tracking on any of our cars. They adjust the wrong rods. I have a simple light ally trammel with a pointer
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Post by lagain on Dec 7, 2021 17:04:41 GMT
I used the same tyre place for many years, perhaps decades, for the Avon Turbospeeds and they always wore on the outer edges. The tyre chaps knew what they were doing and regularly checked the tracking to make sure that it was correct, which it was. I then heard about laser tracking and took my car to the place in Worthing who found that my wheels, front and back, were not quite paralell, they adjusted the track rods and since then the tyres have worn evenly.
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Post by enigmas on Dec 7, 2021 21:32:20 GMT
Thanks for your viewpoints/responses, guys (John, Phil & George.) It really frustrates me, that these technicians (and I use term very loosely) can't follow simple processes. They have very sophisticated wheel alignment machines that provides them with the specific details of the current front suspension geometry and yet can do nothing with the information!
The crux of the problem seems to be the training of these guys which appears to be primarily "monkey see monkey do" without any ability to problem solve, read, decipher technical literature or think laterally. Truly unbelievable!
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Post by Eric R on Dec 11, 2021 14:27:50 GMT
Very interesting. I am well aware of Bosch domestic appliances and auto peripherals such as batteries but I didnt know they were into vehicle arrangements such as shown in your attachment. I see the present settings and the final ones but did they have the original factory settings? Is auto Bosch peculiar to Australia?
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Post by enigmas on Dec 11, 2021 22:27:19 GMT
What are the original factory settings Eric apart from what is stated in the WSM? Virtually nothing apart from the toe-in or toe-out is adjustable. The only method of adjusting the caster angle (which has the biggest effect on straight line steering stability is to jack the front of the car up and lower the rear end...tail down. This increases positive caster.
For a prestige car that sold right up to the early 1970s, it truly is woeful that some proper adjustments weren't built into the top wishbones. There are no shortage of small custom engineering businesses that could have fabricated these for P5s if the factory couldn't get their act together for this straight forward modification.
I have no specific information about "Auto Bosch" in OZ Eric. I'm sure the owner of the business wouldn't be impressed with the lack of skill shown by the expert wheel alignment specialists they employ!
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Post by djm16 on Dec 12, 2021 11:46:09 GMT
I am a little puzzled by the Bosch printout re the rear axle. Does it really have 3mm of toe out? Is that normal? Is it even possible to bend the rear axle casing that much if not?
Could be a bent wheel, or alignment machine out of adjustment.
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Post by enigmas on Dec 12, 2021 12:19:44 GMT
I am a little puzzled by the Bosch printout re the rear axle. Does it really have 3mm of toe out? Is that normal? Is it even possible to bend the rear axle casing that much if not? Could be a bent wheel, or alignment machine out of adjustment. As the numbers are negative they probably indicate toe-in David. Nor do they add up correctly in the initial measurement. Have you ever put a dial gauge on pressed steel wheel or a wire wheel? They never run perfectly true. Only modern alloy wheels machined on CNC lathes meet that criteria. Similarly with live rear axles of traditional rear wheel drive cars there's bound to be production variations. If there's any variation at all in each rear leaf spring set, in the bushes and in the mounting fixtures of the monocoque, the suspension geometry is bound to vary slightly side to side and overall. As the rear axle utilizes 2 half shafts, it doesn't necessarily follow that they are in perfect alignment. Just consider what worn out, decayed front subframe bushes contribute detrimentally to a P5s dynamic suspension geometry whilst on the move.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Dec 12, 2021 14:21:04 GMT
Why are modern car finest production tolerances applied to 60+ year old cars that did not have them in first place even without wear and tear?
If there are issues with handling then its usually restoring to what was acceptable at the time. "At the time" criteria deteriorated when Rover was taken over by near enough truck/bus makers Leyland and then the cheap and cheerful BMC!
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Post by Mike’S-a-loon on Dec 14, 2021 13:48:49 GMT
Yesterday I had the pleasure of meeting Vince and Tony, seeing my car for the first time in its new colour, and then driving it around Melbourne. It was a real pleasure to spend a few hours with Vince, talk about old cars and life, see his artworks and technical projects, and be able to thank him properly for his efforts on my car. I learned a lot, and would have loved to have been able to spend more time getting to know a genuinely creative and artistic man with solid technical abilities and a passion for the quirky. Great moustache, too! Attachment DeletedAttachment Deleted
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Dec 14, 2021 16:15:15 GMT
Well done Vince and Tony You look like a Harley Biker Vince get the leathers on
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boz
Rover Rookie
Posts: 12
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Post by boz on Dec 14, 2021 18:02:00 GMT
Hi Vince, the moustache is certainly getting bigger, boz
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Post by enigmas on Dec 14, 2021 21:53:43 GMT
Thanks John & Boz. Yeah,it was really nice to meet Mike after our efforts recommissioning his car. A thoroughly nice guy who certainly enjoys putting the pedal to the metal in his saloon if the opportunity allows. Mike and I spent a few hours chatting about cars and life. We also cruised around my local area so that Mike could refamiliarize himself with Winston and also pick up a few supplies for the saloon's ongoing care before head off. An Observation. I note that P5B owners in the UK get stressed when stuck immobile in traffic on a warm day with the temperature reaching the mid 20s C. On the day Mike came to pickup his car the temperature in Melbourne was in the low 30s. It was both hot and the traffic dense. The saloon didn't miss a beat although stationary in traffic at times. The factory temperature gauge was in the right hand section of it's colour coded face (whatever that's meant to mean?) but there was no evidence of boiling, nor did the engine falter at any time. There's an additional electric fan fitted to the front of the radiator but its currently non functional due to a failed thermal switch. Getting this operational should be straight forward and worthwhile insurance from overheating situations. Temperatures in OZ can climb to the 40s even in the cooler southern States.
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Post by Mike’S-a-loon on Dec 15, 2021 16:43:55 GMT
Hey Vince,
I got the electric fan working yesterday. It was simply a matter of finding the earth connection and reconnecting it. The earthing issues continue! Happily, the fan now kicks in and out as required. I did an oil and filter change yesterday, having driven about 80 miles down the mornington peninsula and back, and the oil was quite dark, so a good decision I think. At this point, the more unpleasant material removed from the engine internals the better. The heater hose sprung a leak, so I shortened it a bit and it is holding water perfectly again.
As you know, the weather in Melbourne is particularly mild at the moment (=UK Summer), but the old boy did struggle a bit with the cooling in stationary traffic. Since I got the electric fan running, it is a lot better.
Today a bit of a tappety noise started on the DS bank. It comes and goes on a rev related cadence, but not at a "per revs" kind of speed, (ie faster revving=faster repeat, but in 1-2 second waves) so I am wondering if it is a conrod or cam follower rotating and maybe lacking lubricant. Tomorrow I will pull the DS rocker cover off and see if there is a blockage in the oil feed. If it was a constant tappety tap along with revs I would be more confident, but as it stands it comes and go's and flows. Any tips?
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Post by enigmas on Dec 15, 2021 22:00:20 GMT
There'll be not much point or gain (if any) to be made by removing the rocker covers again Mike. Tony rodded out the oil feeds to both sides of the rocker gear. The "tappety" noise emanates from the hydraulic lifters not the rockers.
Listen to the exhaust note at the tailpipe Mike...that's the reference for the engine running evenly on all cylinders not the lifter noise!
There's an ample supply of oil in the lifter gallery between the camshaft nose and the lifter base as the gallery is quite large. All the lifters were rotating when I checked after we'd refitted the valve gear. The feed holes to the hydraulic lifters though are quite small. As the car sat idle for years, an oil residue or film forms, hardens and causes a ridge stopping the tappet internals functioning as designed.
Intermittent lifter noise is a lifter trying to clear itself. Whatever is in the hydraulic lifter clears for a moment and then obstructs again momentarily. You should have heard it when Tony and I first started it after years of inactivity.
Hydraulic lifters are precision components and it doesn't take much to effect they're function. Get the engine hot and drive it alot and allow the detergent in the oil to do it's job. You'll need to be patient. That's about the best therapy you can give the engine.
Even withdrawing 'old' lifters from the top with the valley cover removed can damage the lifter bore due to a hardened oil ridge. In this scenario, you'd carefully pull the camshaft and remove the lifters from below.
Your best option without dismantling a lot of the engine is to get it up to temperature and just drive the car as much as possible. Running it a bit hotter is better. This will loosen any residues and be caught by the filter. The engine ran perfectly on the day you came to pickup the car from my place. It was a very hot day (30C if I recall) and we were stationary in traffic for quite long periods.
If you really want to do something that will assist the engine, pull the sump off and physically clean the gauze strainer. It does make a difference as the mesh slowly clogs up and reduces the effective mesh orifice size over time.
Also add some of the Morey's oil stabilizer to the engine oil. It's tacky qualities certainly help to protect the engine's internals.
PS. You have my number Mike just give me a call if you have a concern.
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Post by Mike’S-a-loon on Dec 16, 2021 2:26:49 GMT
Hey Vince,
Great advice, thanks mate.
It goes against the grain to drive it with the engine sounding like a gravel crusher, but you were right! It's improved a lot from belting along the freeway for an hour...
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Post by enigmas on Jan 21, 2022 13:49:41 GMT
Winston's Noisy Tappets For those of you who don't know who Winston is, he's Mike's P5B saloon and once again I've got him for some more remedial work. He'll be staying with his older Mk3 sibling (albeit a coupe) at my home for the time being whilst I sort out a few issues relating to being both locked away in storage and unused for years, and other issues derived from being dismantled and reassembled after receiving a fresh coat of paint in Admiralty blue.
Enough of that...
If you've been following this blog you may recall that one of the first issues with Mike's saloon was to get the car running again. The engine wasn't seized but showed evidence of long periods of storage. Internally the engine was caked in dried black oil. Within the rocker covers, rust flakes were apparent from a couple of pressed steel oil deflectors. Tony and I cleaned most of the grunge away and also attended to the oil pump before we primed the engine for it's first start in years.
Jumping ahead, we eventually got the car to a stage where it was roadworthy and driving reliably. Since then it has received several oil and filter changes. It starts instantly each day and the engine is strong with an even exhaust beat. Even the 30°C temperatures being experienced in Melbourne currently seems not to phase it. Winston has a thermostatically controlled auxilary electric fan that supplements the original mechanical one and this combination appears to work effectively.
The down side. The engine has become more tappety lately. This is most likely due to the release of dried oil (infer grunge) being slowly released within the engine and blocking the fine working tolerances of the hydraulic tappets.
After speaking to Mike and picking the car up from it's storage facility, I thought I'd try something remedial using ATF. When Tony and I first started working on the car, the oil contained within the sump was both thin and black as pitch. This was replaced with a good quality 15W/60 engine oil and supplemented with a dose of Moreys Oil stabilizer. Morey's oil has a very tacky consistency and clings to surfaces. As the engine hadn't been run for years we wanted to ensure a viable film strength was there to protect parts that had remained static during this time.
After warming the engine I drained out 2 litres of oil and added 2 litres of ATF. Automatic Transmission Fluid is highly detergent and thin, about 10W. I've driven the car quietly, circling around my neighbourhood for a couple hours each day. The lifter noise has also diminished markedly...all except for one lifter.
To be continued, pix and short vids to follow...
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jan 21, 2022 15:42:40 GMT
Yesterday I had the pleasure of meeting Vince and Tony, seeing my car for the first time in its new colour, and then driving it around Melbourne. It was a real pleasure to spend a few hours with Vince, talk about old cars and life, see his artworks and technical projects, and be able to thank him properly for his efforts on my car. I learned a lot, and would have loved to have been able to spend more time getting to know a genuinely creative and artistic man with solid technical abilities and a passion for the quirky. Great moustache, too! <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> Attachments deleted by someone?
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Post by Mike’S-a-loon on Jan 21, 2022 16:11:35 GMT
Not by me! I'll see if I can re-attach the severed Vince.
ok, done!
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Post by enigmas on Jan 22, 2022 2:23:37 GMT
Winston's Hydraulic Lifter Assessment Vids
Here are 4 short videos in succession relating to the noisy hydraulic lifters in Mikes P5B saloon.
And one final video of the engine running with one distinctively noisy rocker/lifter assembly
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Post by enigmas on Jan 22, 2022 3:07:23 GMT
Winston's Dirty PixHere's what's been occurring within Winston. There's dried silt, residue and grunge from (I'm sorry to say Mike) infrequent oil changes. The fresh detergent oil (and the ATF) is slowly doing it's job in both absorbing and releasing the grot. The unfortunate consequence of this is that (and I'm presuming) the original factory fitted lifters have clogged the fine working tolerances. Here's a few pix. Note this dried congealed oil. I wonder what is residing under the valley cover? And a little bit more of tidying (cut, snip, shorten & rejoin) unneccessary electrical spaghetti. Before: After: PS. There are also quite a number of 1/4" UNF panel bolts missing Mike which I'll rectify with new fasteners and washers from my local industrial nut & bolt supplier.
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Post by enigmas on Jan 22, 2022 22:32:34 GMT
Hydraulic Lifter AssessmentAs I have a couple of used hydraulic lifter sets aside, I thought I'd dismantle one or two for an evaluation as to wear and tear on these precision components. I'll also post several pages taken from my P76 V8 WSM which clearly outlines both the assembly, function and issues that relate to wear. Note the wear patterns on the 3 lifter bases below; they all illustrate viable and functional wear. The 3 videos below are optional if simply scanning the above information.If truly interested in engine building/repair or maintenance then the videos below are well worth watching. The first video focuses on refacing/resurfacing flat tappets. The second on breaking in a fresh flat tappet cam and lifters The third deals with poorly manufactured hydraulic lifter sets that are currently on the market. This last video is particularly valid as it illustrate the damage one bad lifter can cause. Note especially the deep grooving to the base of the new lifter.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jan 23, 2022 9:46:49 GMT
Thanks for taking the time to share That's all good info Vince the Rover SM is no where near as informative.
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Post by enigmas on Jan 23, 2022 12:37:54 GMT
Hi John, those pages are taken from my Leyland P76 WSM. It's a really useful resource with lots of valuable and well presented tech info. 😎👍 Noisy Lifters & ATFAs for the noisy lifers on Mike's saloon, the 2 litres of ATF added to the engine oil (total 5 litres) has seemingly managed to quieten all but one errant lifter, number 5 exhaust. There's one last option available to remedy that noisy lifter until I have to pull the inlet manifold and investigate further. Note, Correction (a) as outlined below.
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Post by enigmas on Jan 26, 2022 8:53:48 GMT
No. 5 Exhaust Noisy Hydraulic Lifter The weather's been extremely humid and hot over the last 3 days (30°- 35°C) so work on Winston has taken a back seat to managing the heat wave.
This evening was cool enough to investigate the source of the noisy tappet once again. So here's another brief video that illustrates the issue clearly.
The course of action is also clear. The inlet manifold and valley cover will have to come off. The source of the noise at this stage could be any of the following: 1. Collapsed/stuck lifter internals 2. Clogged lifter oil feed 3. Worn lifter base 4. Worn pushrod 5. Worn rocker (either end) 6. Worn camshaft lobe.
All the pushrods still rotate as they should, so I doubt that a lifter has a parallel gouged base from non rotation. Another possibility is that natural wear on the lifter base has created a concave hollow that exceeds the preload value of the lifter.
An .008" feeler gauge inserted between the rocker and the valve stem effectively quietens the lifter clacking. If the original preload was .020", and there is now .028" of wear on the lifter base (or a combination of base and camshaft lobe), then this would account for the clacking lifter.
Until I access the engine valley and components...it still remains as speculation. We'll see.
PS. You may note that all the other lifters are now quiet. This is directly due to the 2 litres of ATF mixed in with the engine oil (total 5 litres). It certainly is an effective detergent when used in this manner.
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