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Post by Warwick on Aug 11, 2014 3:46:43 GMT
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Post by Warwick on Aug 11, 2014 4:10:10 GMT
Yes, they are still available in OZ Steve. There's a link at the bottom of the last photo that has contact details of a dealer. The version you're looking at is about double the price of the red Polyairs. Cart springs certainly is the right term for the rear suspension of a P5. A 4 bar rear link system incorporating a panhard rod and air suspension on the rear would make a world of difference to the ride quality and handling. I never realised this idea had been around for so long until I stumbled on this:- www.speedhunters.com/2014/05/know-real-history-air-suspension/The idea goes back further than that Steve. Somewhere I have a copy of The Motor Manual, from about 1915. There is an article on suspension in which the author states that air suspension is the future of car suspension, and he says he can't understand why so little development work was being done.
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Post by enigmas on Aug 13, 2014 10:41:50 GMT
Since some of the discussion has moved to air bag suspension systems, l'd just like to throw a spanner in the works with regard to views on retaining the old OEM rear leafs and replacing them with whatever seems available after market. My P5 still retains its original rear leaf suspension (cleaned and greased) but minus a couple of lower leafs when I fitted the Polyair bags. This is evident in the photos on the previous page if you look at the length of the U bolt threads protruding below the lower spring saddle. This produces in my view quite a comfortable ride from the rear suspension.
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Post by cyf on Sept 25, 2014 7:00:26 GMT
Did you replace the leaf springs, Chuck Berry? If so, is the car have the "dragster style"?
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haikuhead
Rover Fanatic
Posts: 167
Location: London
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Post by haikuhead on Nov 14, 2014 15:07:10 GMT
I also bought some springs for my P5B from someone who bought them from JRW but after fitting them the back of my car was so high it looked like a drag car. Hi Norvin I'm having the same issue with a P5B Coupe I recently bought. The previous owner had installed the JRW rear leaf springs and due to this it looks too high at the back. I was told the only way to now get the Coupe to sit correctly was to find / install some old springs. I doubt there are any NOS around so your idea of removing two leafs is intriguing. I believe the JRW springs are heavy-duty but can they handle having two less leaves? Has there been any noticeable downside to this? In terms of ride, handling, safety? etc. Thanks
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Post by norvin on Nov 14, 2014 15:32:10 GMT
It must be about 8 or 9 years ago when I fitted my rear springs and removed a couple of leaves from each spring and I have had no trouble what so ever and I have driven four up and those in the back said how comfortable it was, I have been under the car and checked them out over the years and to grease them up and they look fine and the car is still nice and level.
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Post by harvey on Nov 14, 2014 18:37:45 GMT
Bearing in mind the number of classic cars on the road, most of which have rear leaf springs, I wonder if there is a reconditioner somewhere in the UK? Brost Forge.
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Post by enigmas on Nov 15, 2014 2:06:47 GMT
It would be nice if it were that simple and straight forward. When the original leaf springs were new they would have had a preset arch formed during manufacture. They would then have been heat treated and assembled. There also would have been considerable R & D to standardize the product...not forgetting the metallurgy of the springs. Given all this product development by the factory it's not likely to be matched by an after market supplier for a limited number of classic cars. If you want the rear end sitting at a specific height take the car to a suspension or hot rod shop but not the local garage.
As for ride quality...that's another issue.
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Post by norvin on Nov 15, 2014 7:26:54 GMT
The only dealer who may have any original rear springs is Barry Kent I know at one time his dad had original P4 springs.
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kaiser
Rover Fanatic
worth his V8 in gold!
Posts: 136
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Post by kaiser on Nov 15, 2014 7:55:08 GMT
It would be nice if it were that simple and straight forward. When the original leaf springs were new they would have had a preset arch formed during manufacture. They would then have been heat treated and assembled. There also would have been considerable R & D to standardize the product...not forgetting the metallurgy of the springs. Given all this product development by the factory it's not likely to be matched by an after market supplier for a limited number of classic cars. If you want the rear end sitting at a specific height take the car to a suspension or hot rod shop but not the local garage. As for ride quality...that's another issue. Let us not make this more complicated than it is. Leaf springs are not difficult to make, at all. It has been done for several centuries. If you want to have new springs made, it can be done. The problem with the Rover springs are that they were on the soft side for starters. The primitive system used for the rear is at best a compromise between load bearing ability and comfort. But, if you have to re-temper your springs twice in a century, so what?
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Post by enigmas on Nov 15, 2014 12:23:47 GMT
Kaiser I never said it was difficult to fit or retemper a set of rear leaf springs. Part of the question related to getting the 'correct' rear ride height. Driving your treasured classic around with a 'bum-up' attitude may not be the way one wants to present one's car to the general public. I'd say (but I could be wrong) that it's definitely not de rigueur for most Rover P5 owners...but it is Spring...down under. My solution to this problem was to clean and rebuild the original set and fit auxiliary poly airs. Some people (and I'm not kidding) add weight in the boot to both soften the ride and produce a more refined profile. Norvin provided a solution, but it does requires some experimentation and not everyone has the patience nor the expertise for this.
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Post by Colin McA on Nov 15, 2014 18:12:30 GMT
I had this dilema about springs and put it off for a few years.
Ended up with good used ones from david green. Perfect all round. I had planned to retemper but no need.
The weight in boot is a good shout. Friend of mine in to military vehicles told me about a lad who had a Land Rover 101 Forward control. Was poor to drive unless loaded. So he had a large water bowser the back.
Colin
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Post by stantondavies on Nov 15, 2014 20:41:21 GMT
I have fitted McKinley spring assisters to JRW springs. The JRW springs were fitted about twenty years ago and have performed perfectly. Although they are only five leaf, it can be seen how much thicker they are. I have towed a 15cwt caravan for years without problem and fitted the McKinleys recently only because the replacement caravan is 28cwt. The old 'vans were much more intelligently designed!
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Post by enigmas on Nov 15, 2014 22:02:36 GMT
If you're disassembling and reconditioning/restoring your own springs it's also worthwhile carefully inspecting the flat surfaces where the end of the spring leaves often cause a wear ridge. This occurs when the interleaf plastic button has disintegrated over time. A small wear ridge 'like a line' is created and this becomes a point of weakness and can cause a fatigue break. So it's worth linishing the surface at this point to produce a uniformly smooth surface, even if it thins the leaf slightly. I had a break like this occur on my Magnette many years ago.
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haikuhead
Rover Fanatic
Posts: 167
Location: London
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Post by haikuhead on Nov 15, 2014 22:53:53 GMT
It does seem unfortunate that Wadhams in particular have not altered the thickness of their springs to ensure a more even profile for the P5 as this seems to have been a well known issue for a good number of years now. Not everyone is happy driving around in a Rover with it's ass so high in the air it looks like a b i t c h - dog on heat
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Post by stantondavies on Nov 16, 2014 15:17:16 GMT
It does seem unfortunate that Wadhams in particular have not altered the thickness of their springs to ensure a more even profile for the P5 as this seems to have been a well known issue for a good number of years now. I have JRW springs fitted and have no problem at all with ride height. Attachments:
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Post by enigmas on Nov 16, 2014 21:57:11 GMT
That's just the point "they're not cart springs" pounded into shape by a blacksmith on an anvil. The originals were specifically designed for the P5 and not a cart.
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Post by enigmas on Nov 16, 2014 23:53:17 GMT
I'm not trying to be difficult or obtuse over this leaf spring issue but there's a lot more to it than appearances suggest. Just because they appear to be such a simple and basic design doesn't mean the exact specifics of the OEM springs are easy to manufacture by small after market companies. Basic things within the design such as metallurgy, heat treatment, jigs for creating the correct arch during initial manufacture all need to be taken into account. Most aftermarket spring manufacturers access stock leaf spring material that cover a range of makes and models. They may count the number of leaves and replicate the look but not the engineered specifics of the OEM spring as it just isn't cost effective. Of course you can cobble up just about any alternative replacement that will function but you'd have to be very lucky to match the design parameters of an OEM factory set. To give a point of comparison, consider how short lived and fatigue prone are most of the aftermarket rubber (?) boots, seals and suspension components.
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Post by Steve P5b on Nov 17, 2014 15:36:19 GMT
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Post by enigmas on Nov 17, 2014 21:51:37 GMT
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Post by stantondavies on Nov 17, 2014 22:14:03 GMT
The Rover P5 is a 1950s design and I think it holds up very well in today's traffic. Don't be too picky! I have no problems with my car as it is.
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Post by Steve P5b on Nov 18, 2014 17:32:03 GMT
Good read Vince , thanks for that. I currently run a transit sport van with parabolics and they do out perform cart springs and it amazes me that they don't bend with all the load they carry on occasion. They don't suffer from "sticktion" that is so often talked about.
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Post by Jens Munk on Dec 15, 2014 19:38:22 GMT
Well, I am into the spring replacement too. It was sitting lower at the rear left and had some clunks especially when taking off from stand still. I couldn't really see anything wrong until I have got them off. The front eye on the left spring is broken and is hopefully the source of the clunking/cracking sounds. New springs ordered and on their way from JRW. Jens. Attachment Deleted Attachment Deleted
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Post by enigmas on Dec 15, 2014 20:18:28 GMT
Those leaf springs really do show a lot of corrosion!
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Dec 15, 2014 21:05:11 GMT
Those leaf springs really do show a lot of corrosion! They are the worst ones I have seen Vince
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