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Post by Warwick on Jul 31, 2008 6:30:01 GMT
A compression test is on my list for next time I get to spend time on the car. I think I now know what cam profile is installed. It is a Crow cam and most likely the one intended to improve torque in the 1,000 to 3,900 rpm range. Its mainly intended to improve towing in a 3.5 early Range Rover.
The tappets, chain and sprockets were replaced at the same time (I think less than 20,000km ago) and they would have been standard.
When I said empty lifters, I meant unpressurized and drained through sitting idle for nearly 2 months. If the engine is only turned over by hand, they shouldn't pump up and should follow the lobe as if they were solid.
If I get nowhere with the compression test, retiming and SUs readjusting, I will probably have to look at the camshaft. At least it will be easier to remove now - before I refit the air-con condensor.
The trouble is I know where all this tends to lead. Back in the late '80s when I had the '77 2-door Rangie, I had to remove the water pump to get the seal replaced. From there it was just another small step to check something else and on and on it went ... Remove water pump. Remove timing case. Remove and replace oil pump gears. Remove heads and get valve regrind and plane heads. Replace heater pipes. Remove air-con condensor and compressor. Remove camshaft. Replace tappets, chain and sprockets. Overhaul starter motor. Replace distributor. Overhaul alternator. Replace air-con dryer/receiver and replumb all air-con lines. Modify exhaust system. Install remote starter solenoid and isolator.
All because the water pump started to leak. Aaaarrrrgggghhh !!!!
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Post by enigmas on Jul 31, 2008 10:56:47 GMT
Warwick have you connected a good vacuum gauge to this engine. If the motor is fitted with a torque producing cam idle should not be a problem. If you can start it and it won't idle under 800rpm (in neutral and warm), I'd lockup the centrifugal advance mechanism, block off/disconnect the vacuum advance (perhaps someone has connected it to an incorrect port producing advance at idle...which side of the throttle plate is it attached?) and set the idle with a vacuum gauge, disregarding the timing marks (this is the best way to setup a gas/LPG engine) and place the vacuum needle on the gauge where it should be at highest vacuum reading. This method removes any advance that may interfere with an even and consistent idle.
If the engine is displaying pinging/knock? at low engine speeds something is introducing too much advance too early.
The crow cam may be producing higher cyl pressures lower in the engines operational range than the factory camshaft. If the mechanical advance has been set on a machine off the engine to Rover specs it will have absolutely no relationship to the requirements of the new cam. If so...this is an easy fix but you need a tacho. I'll stop here as you may have already considered this...and this exceedingly long droning stream of consciousness may be making someone comatose.
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Post by Warwick on Aug 1, 2008 0:18:59 GMT
I think you could be onto something here Vince. The vac line to the distributor is connected to the right port BUT when I ordered the Scorcher distributor, it was set up for a standard engine. I had completely forgotten about being told that the camshaft was not standard.
I've had a feeling for a while now that I may have been chasing different faults that happen to have similar symptoms. That's why I was planning to start from scratch again with all the adjustments.
The original problem of lack of power on the drive home was probably a worn distributor and badly set up SUs. I replaced the distributor and overhauled the SUs and still have the problem ... but for different reasons.
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Post by Warwick on Apr 12, 2009 5:17:25 GMT
Time for another update. (I'd forgotten about this thread) With the rest of the family away for Easter with the in-laws, and having put in a goodly amount of back-breaking work yesterday, cutting and splitting firewood for the winter, I thought I deserved to spend some time on the Rover today. Having already fixed the worn/loose front pulley and found the static timing problem (see other thread on pulleys), I took it for its first long run since driving it home from Brisbane 2 years ago. The correction of the static timing due to the pulley marks has eliminated most of the previous problems - but a hint still lingers. The car starts and runs well from cold now and the lack of power is only noticeable when under reasonable load such as climbing a significant hill or attempting to accelerate quickly. There are some steady climbs around home and between here and Warragul so it has always been quite noticeable whenever I've been testing it after changes or adjustments. But a couple of weeks ago I decided to take it for a run into Melbourne. Right into the CBD in fact. About 100km each way. She ran beautifully along the freeway and in the traffic but then the hills are few and less pronounced. There was still a hint of the problem (pinking or roughness), but nowhere near as much. But the load was less too. So today I decided to do the compression test so I pulled all the plugs out and discovered something interesting. 7 plugs looked much the same. Blackish. Those from the LH bank were slightly oily around the thread and looked slightly damp inside. Those from the RH bank looked the same colour, but were dry. The engine hasn't run for a couple of weeks and the 200km trip. But plug Number 8 (rear of RH bank) was very dry, powdery and tan. It looks like fine rust, but is even on the porcelain. The plug is so dry that some of the brown powder comes off. You can see where some has fallen off onto the cloth they are sitting on. Is there something amiss with this one; or all the others? You see my problem is that I haven't played with an engine for over 20 years, in the days of leaded petrol, so I've no idea what it should look like. I'm still coming to terms with the fact that I can't admire the well-tuned pale grey colour in the tailpipe after a good run. And as for the compression test? While not the specified 180 to 190 psi there is nothing really bad. Strangely, one is quite high. 8) 170__________7) 170 6) 160__________5) 165 4) 175__________3) 175 2) 180__________1) 200 Whoops - wrote those down the wrong way. Now correct, not that it makes any difference
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Post by norvin on Apr 12, 2009 7:59:37 GMT
Hope this might help you with your plugs, yours look like 6 and 8. Hope you do not mind me saying that a compression check needs the engine hot and carbs wide open.
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Post by Warwick on Apr 12, 2009 10:28:22 GMT
Thanks Norvin - I told you it's been a long time. I forgot about it needing to be hot but I did remember to have the throttle open BUT I just remembered that the manifold crosses over, so I was holding the wrong SU piston up. B****r!
Better do it again tomorrow.
6 and 8 do look about right but I wouldn't have described my as oiled up. Not oily enough. More like damp black soot. Also puzzled by the description of "sooted up" for picture 8. Wouldn't sooting up from a rich mixture look black or is the reddy brown colour another oddity of unleaded? It really does look like dry powdery rust in colour.
Also, how would one cylinder be running rich on one of these engines?
Very interesting - and frustrating!
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Apr 12, 2009 10:48:17 GMT
On my 3 Litre I ran it for over 10k files with a blowing headgasket and the plug used to rust up and misfire when cold. There could be a head gasket problem looming as all plugs should come out abot the same colour (at least on each carb/equivalent cylinder) remembering that each carb feeds 2 cylinders on each side. The brownplug looks very similar to what mone did It is odd the others would be oily as well What fuel are using - any additives?
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Post by Warwick on Apr 12, 2009 11:18:47 GMT
Hhhmmm.
It does lose a small amount of water, but I thought that was just from the Otter switch hole blanking plate. The cooling system doesn't seem to over-pressurize.
I'm using 98 octane premium unleaded, with a dash of octane booster to push it over 100.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Apr 12, 2009 12:37:06 GMT
Octane boosters do give plug deposits but all of them should have approx the same colour so perhaps a CO coolenat sniff may be worthwhile and also check the mixtures are balanced. The timing may have gone off too giving the pinking or it running hot. I would not go pulling off the heads with out more symptoms if water loss is not much - try sealing the switch!
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Post by Warwick on Apr 12, 2009 13:09:12 GMT
Well spotted on the additives question. I hadn't considered that and its effect on combustion deposits. Still, there is definitely something going on with that cylinder and I have thought that when pushed it was a bit like it was struggling on 7 cylinders. Now that all the earlier problems have been discovered and sorted out, that's the final remaining feeling - running on 7 when working hard.
I'll see what I can discover tomorrow. Must do Vince's vacuum test too - if I can find my gauge!
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Post by norvin on Apr 12, 2009 16:07:27 GMT
Most plug charts do tend too say plugs are more of a grey colour now when running ok, as Phil said do you have a cylinder head gasket fault, this should show up on your compression test. Could the pinking be due to coke on the piston crowns if all else is ok, I know you said you use an octane booster but would it boost 98 up over 100 octane.
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Post by Warwick on Apr 13, 2009 3:49:56 GMT
It's suppose to boost it that far Norvin, depending on how much you add.
It's all become a bit academic now. It has to be a head gasket. If I'd run the engine before pulling the plugs out on Saturday, it would have been apparent then.
Started it up this morning and at fast idle I could hear a noise like an exhaust manifold gasket leak at the rear of the LH bank, but couldn't see or feel anything. Then within a minute the radiator was foaming up. I had the cap off to top up the little bit that it usually loses. I filled it to the top and watched it and it foamed madly and overflowed.
Foaming proportional to speed of idle. Top hose stone cold because thermostat would be still closed. Bottom hose warming up. Water in radiator too hot to keep your finger in for long.
So it has to be a head gasket with the leak pushing hot water and gas out of the block through the bottom hose.
It's probably been leaking slightly for ages and causing that last niggling running fault, but then packed it in properly on the 200km run to the city and back recently.
So now it looks like I could be in for some serious expenditure. The camshaft was replaced by the previous owner about 7 years and 20,000 miles ago, so I hope everything is as it should be when take the lids off. But these things have a habit of spreading.
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Post by enigmas on Apr 13, 2009 4:42:03 GMT
Warwick, before you pull the motor down try a can of Chemi-weld in the system. It's worked very well for me in the past and it will not block the radiator. I once accidently lifted the cyl head on a Datsun I owned going up a steep and rutted gravel driveway. The next day the engine wouldn't turn over as the cyl had filled with coolant (hydraulic lock). I added the Chemi -weld to the radiator removed the radiator cap and ran it at idle until it warmed up switched it off and repeated the process several times. The car passed through 2 more owners (neices) in the next 6 years and never gave a hint of trouble. Similarly I had a miss at idle in my P5 when I first put it together (many years ago...porous composite gasket) and treating it with Chemi-weld resolved the problem. So...give it a try..it certainly won't hurt anything and may save you an enormous task.
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Post by norvin on Apr 13, 2009 9:17:24 GMT
If it was my car I would pull it down and make a job of it, and give it a decoke etc, it gives you piece of mind and of a job well done.
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Post by Warwick on Apr 13, 2009 11:10:26 GMT
Thanks.
You're both right of course. I intend hanging on to this car for a very long time. After all, it has taken me over 40 years to get one. (Not that I'd been trying all that time). So, there is certainly wisdom in getting inside it and sorting it all out properly, once and for all. The confidence in its reliability that comes with that is as good as the satisfaction.
But, from a convenience point of view, now is not a good time as I have too many other projects on my plate. If I do it properly now, it could well stay in bits for 6 months while I do a bit now and then. I have a can of Chemi-weld in the shed, so it's certainly worth a try. My understanding of it was that it was for leaks in metal such as porousity or cracks. The 2-litre pushrod Peugeot engines have an occasional water-jacket cracking problem that Chemi-weld has generally fixed. But I didn't know it would work for a serious gasket leak.
I'm watching extracts from the Montreal comedy festival on TV as I write this ... A Canadian comic talking about his dog which is a Dachshund Border Collie cross ... "He's really long because he's part Dachshund, and really smart because of the Border Collie - so he knows how stupid he looks."
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Post by Warwick on May 18, 2009 7:19:27 GMT
Is it any wonder I get frustrated and the P5B just sits in the shed waiting for me to do something!!
At the moment I have the 505 getting its head gasket done because I'm getting oil in the radiator. This is a known fault with the 2.3 OHC engine when the miles get up. Since the head will be off and will need to be planed, it makes sense to do the valves and timing belt. The car was about to be sold.
The 406 sprang a leak from the heater matrix and flooded the floor with coolant, and the servomotor that drives the fresh air vent stripped its plastic gears. So I spent yesterday and the weekend before that dismantling half the near side facia to get access. The Haynes manual is of course either wrong or inadequate. (Although it's hard to blame them, the way cars are these days). I had to resort to a drill and a hacksaw blade to get access to screws that were fitted before the dash was installed.
The Range Rover started running rough at idle last week and then began stalling when you take your foot off the throttle. This happens every few years and all it takes is a good blast of throttle-body cleaner to get it running nicely again. I did this yesterday and when I pulled off the vac line at the distributor to give it a blow through, the vac capsule pulled away! The screws have fallen out! I managed to find one with the same thread in my tin of assorted screws but it hasn't fixed the idling problem. No time to investigate further, and no spare car, so I had to drive the Rangie to the airport as I have to be in Tasmania for a few days for work. It's just great driving in traffic when the engine wants to stall every time you take your foot off - and the ignition switch has to be turned off before restarting.
Aaaarrrggghhh!!! I should just get a bicycle!
By the way, I understand that the P38a Rangie has the same heater fan and air flap unit as the 406, so if anyone has the same stripped gear problem in their Range Rover, I can give you some pointers. It manifests itself as a constant buzzing or clicking noise behind the dashboard and a malfunction of the air recirc system.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 18, 2009 8:47:06 GMT
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Post by enigmas on May 18, 2009 8:48:25 GMT
Commiserations Warwick. Buy a Ford!
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Post by Warwick on May 19, 2009 7:46:41 GMT
So which is it to be? I'm confused. A Ford, or a bike?
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Post by glennr on Dec 24, 2009 6:20:41 GMT
Hi Warwick, I will/have sent a PM
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Post by Warwick on Jan 22, 2010 9:59:45 GMT
Are the head bolts on a 1970 model usually this short?
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Post by harvey on Jan 22, 2010 15:03:04 GMT
Been there, done that, and it's a horrible feeling as they snap because you always think there was something you could have done to avoid it, but there rarely is. I'm just hoping for your sake that they're from the bottom row of bolts which you can leave out.......
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Post by Warwick on Jan 22, 2010 22:15:04 GMT
You can see where the socket has skipped and started to round off the head. The others came out with that comforting click as they start to undo. But these wouldn't budge until I used a single-hex impact socket and a 3ft piece of water pipe over my T-handle. Those that did come out were coated with tthe drying remains of thread sealant, so initially I wasn't too worried about the tight ones. That is, not until I got them turning and there was no click - just that constant resistance as they slowly turn and you start to get that uneasy feeling in the pit of your stomach.
Yes they are from the lower row fortunately. I still haven't tackled the driver's side head yet however. Who knows what that will do. I'm having trouble getting access to 2 of the exhaust manifold bolts.
What's your opinion of the practice of leaving out those 4 lower bolts Harvey? I've never met anyone who has done it.
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Post by Smallfry on Jan 22, 2010 23:53:56 GMT
I have left them out before Warwick. Not on a P5 though, but range Rover engines, not that there is any difference.
The first one I did I filled the vacant holes with black RTV silicone sealer because otherwise they get filled with water, dust, funnelweb spiders or whatever.
However, I felt this was a bodge of sorts, so now i just put them in using Loctite 572, which is the correct SEALER (not threadlock) for almost all the bolts in the V8, and just do them up finger tight plus a small nip with a spanner and no more, as this fills the holes up AND looks better IMO.
Not had a problem doing this with either tin or composite head gaskets.
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Post by harvey on Jan 23, 2010 19:59:15 GMT
What's your opinion of the practice of leaving out those 4 lower bolts Harvey? I've never met anyone who has done it. I've never left them out personally, but a lot of people do, and Land Rover stopped fitting them altogether on later engines, so if you want to avoid the hassle of removing the stumps then leave them out. I'd have no qualms about doing it in those circumstances. Good luck with the other head, let's hope that if any more snap they're bottom row as well.
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