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Post by Kev on Jul 26, 2011 14:36:43 GMT
Quick update with pictures of engine mounts, The mounts are fully boxed in with a captive nut for original style engine mount rubbers. I have also gained an interceptor rear axle to fit at some stage. This is a picture from last summer as the car was before i started the engine swap, Does this mean i get moved to the outcast, sorry, modified section? Oh you lucky B****r...a Interceptor axle.All sounds good to me. Keep us posted on your progress Big Kev.
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Post by redsunbeam on Jul 26, 2011 15:28:30 GMT
I looked at putting a jeep grand Cherokee rear axle in but that would have to be narrowed, thought of jag IRS, that would have to be narrowed too plus the pcd would have to be changed. Had a long hard look at BMW M3 rear end - right track width, front hubs could have easily been re drilled to match the rear pcd, but a lot of work to mount the trailing arms. After speaking to the guys at rpi, they told me the interceptor axle needs very little mods to fit so when one came up at the right price i couldn't say no.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2011 17:33:28 GMT
Hi redsunbeam,
Hope you got rear suspension sorted out? There was a P5B in NL with an Interceptor back axle but the suspension was so hard. Felt like an old fashioned tractor. Don't know why but its a subject to consider Which Lexus engine are you going to fit? 4, 4.3, 4.6?
Interests me greatly I had P5B and LS430 parked next to each other for a couple of years. You're parking them in the same space! Sounds so logically efficient!
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Post by redsunbeam on Jul 27, 2011 6:50:22 GMT
Fitting the interceptor rear axle wont affect the feel of the car although the handling should improve with the panhard rod fitted and the lsd. I'm fitting the 4L engine from a soarer because that has the sump position that was needed. The eventual aim is to fit a supercharger. Have a look at bulletcars.com for their supercharger kits for the 1uzfe engine. I think i need one!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2011 8:45:49 GMT
Thanks for the link! Blows me away. You have engine, supercharger, box, drive train. What out the braking system? Would be nice if you can stop it too!
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Post by stevew on Jul 27, 2011 13:16:35 GMT
Keep posting up your progress please redsunbeam, it's great to see something different and very interesting, looks very good so far, nice.
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Post by redsunbeam on Jul 28, 2011 16:08:58 GMT
Braking shouldnt be an issue, the standard brakes when in good condition are more than enough, the jensen rear axle has vented discs with the same calipers as the jaguar e type has at the front. So should be an improvement over the original drums. The steering column parts arrived from the states today so i can crack on with the rack conversion. These are custom parts from flaming river. It proved harder to mate the rover splines to the bmw rack than i thought. Its all been offered up and looks like it will work a treat. Its starting to get a bit crowded at the front now, this is the new crossmember mock up to mount the rack to.
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Post by nighttrain on Aug 16, 2011 19:32:00 GMT
I'm seriously impressed, I did slightly more than fleetingly, think of the possibility of transplanting my Audi 4.2 S8 engine into mine...... but have decided now to keep the Audi and sell the Coupe on, Kudos to you there!
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Post by redsunbeam on Sept 2, 2011 8:24:10 GMT
The steering rack mounts have held things up a bit as its taken three goes to make something im happy with. I made cardboard templates of them to start with, These fitted great but simply werent strong enough, So i tried making them out of thicker plate but still wasn't happy so i simplyfied them, and made them out of 2mm plate. The engine is back in and should only have to come out one more time so im trial fitting as much as i can to make sure nothing clashes for space. The radiator is a diesel mondeo item with twin fans from an st220 mondeo. Things are starting to get a bit cramped in there so its getting harder to get it all in neatly. The engine sits nice and low with lots of room for a supercharger !!!!!!!!
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Post by Warwick on Sept 2, 2011 8:29:40 GMT
Nice work Neil.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2011 9:22:29 GMT
Looking good. Respect!
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Post by enigmas on Sept 2, 2011 10:06:34 GMT
Redsunbeam...from what model BMW did you get the power rack & pinion? Also, what are you doing to correct the steering ackerman angle for the R&P? (i.e. steering arms)
Nice work on this conversion.
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Post by guidedog on Sept 2, 2011 10:33:57 GMT
I find all all these modifications totally amazing.
I know my limits! no way.
Good luck with it all, I will follow thread with great interest
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Post by redsunbeam on Sept 2, 2011 11:35:20 GMT
enigmas, It was over a year ago when i looked at and decided what to do with the steering so this could be a bit vague. I might have to dig out the old drawings but this is how i remember it, If ive understood the principles behind ackerman angles correctly, on the p5 it is set by the drop links and the two steering arms .The angle of the steering arms has more effect than the drop links The existing steering arms have been used and the rack is replacing the tie rod. it is the same length with near identical pivot points so should give the same effect. I havent done any measurements yet but it looks ok so far. Wont really be able to tell untill its a bit more mobile. The rack is from a 3 series BMW. If anyone wants to correct / question this feel free because its got me wondering if its correct now !
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Post by enigmas on Sept 3, 2011 6:59:51 GMT
Redsunbeam, the outboard steering arms on the Rover are straight. The idler arm and the pitman arm is manufactured so that the tie rod ends positioned on these create the correct Ackerman. (Notice how they are not in a straight line...but point to the centre of the diff).
On a rack and pinion system the steering arms need to be bent so that an imaginary line drawn through the tie rod hole will pass the the kingpin or swivel and intersect the differential at the centre pumpkin.
So if the rack is mounted at the front of the cross member with the steering arms pointing forward, the tie rod end would be 'bent out' slightly.
If the rack is mounted behind the cross member with the steering arms facing toward the rear the tie rod portion on the steering arm would be 'bent in' to the centre of the car slightly.
If the imaginary lines were joined together they would form an isosceles triangle.
One other thing to consider is bump steer. The inner swivel of the steering rack needs to pivot with the bottom suspension arm...preferably be parallel with it otherwise bump steer will occur when the wheels move up and down as the pivot points are different. i.e. The wheels will move in and out slightly with suspension movement.
Note: I went through this same process with my V8 MG Magnette.
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Post by redsunbeam on Sept 3, 2011 10:13:11 GMT
Now youve got me rethinking all of it Bump steer i have sorted, tie rods arc the same as the suspension arms, It looks a little out in the photo but i wasnt going to lie on the floor in my pyjamas to get a straight shot. Loading and unloading the suspension has shown no bump steer. Have found the f*g packet with the ackerman details on it. For a front steer rack the steering arm ball joint needs to be outboard of the suspension arm ball joint ? Like this. The compromise is here, the rack needs to be inline with the tie rods ( when looking from above ), moving the rack forward reduces the ackerman angle as the turn becomes sharper, moving the rack back increases the angle. The rack is further forward than is ideal, but it cannot be positioned any further back without compromising the bump steer. This may produce a little tyre squeel when parking but no one will hear it over the burble of a V8 with a straight through exhaust ;D ;D
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Post by enigmas on Sept 4, 2011 9:12:42 GMT
Fair enough if you're satisfied. The easiest way to tell is that when the steering is cranked over hard left or right the inside wheel of the corner you're turning into will be at a steeper angle. The outside wheel turns less as the arc of the turn is greater. You can check this visually without driving the car. Remember your days in the marching squad at school....if you did this? If the ackerman is wrong the turning circle will be very large. www.rc-truckncar-tuning.com/ackerman.htmlThis is a good youtube example of the ackerman principle. Note the steering arms. www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBnk0iRxEqY
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Post by redsunbeam on Sept 4, 2011 19:49:19 GMT
To say i was satisfied would be a bit strong, its more a case of resigned to trying it as it is. It is certainly not ideal but i dont think it is too far away. The options left open to create the ideal ackerman angle are:- Fit larger wheels so i can have new steering arms made that move the ball joint outwards to increase the angle and moved forwards to catch up with the rack. Use a custom made steering rack that can be mounted further back. Cut out the main subframe crossmember so the engine can move further back allowing the rack to be mounted further back. What did you do with your magnette ?
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Post by enigmas on Sept 4, 2011 22:20:50 GMT
I fabricated a custom set of steering arms. This is not that difficult as the arms are quite simple in design and can be made from a chunk of steel. I had a very similar problem to yours. To increase the ackerman angle and clear the wheel rims I just made the steering arms slightly shorter in length...only just enough to clear the tie rod ends from rubbing on the wheel rim. With your power steering rack it shouldn't be an issue. In my case the Magnette has a very large steering wheel and the rover V8 is light. It will just speed up the steering a bit.
If you still have clearance between the tie-rod end and the disc the arms can be heated and bent. Hot rodders do this all the time when they are correcting steering geometry for dropped spindles.
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Post by Warwick on Sept 5, 2011 5:59:42 GMT
Sorry - a bit off-topic, but this conversation reminds me of the work I did on my Mk.7 Bolwell nearly 40 years ago. Of course if the body is removed and all you have is a chassis, it's a lot easier to set up suspension and steering geometry. I just put a tent peg into the lawn under the diff and used string lines to find the correct steering arm angles. The standard Mk.7 was notorious for bump steer as it used a shortened Austin 1800 rack and pinion behind the cross-member. As the engine was also behind the cross-member, and low, it meant the rack was mounted even lower. That resulted in bump steer. The solution was to use an unmodified Wolseley 4/44 rack in front of the cross-member. It's also much easier to set all this up and determine the rack's best position when you can remove the springs and easily move the wheels up and down through full travel, and see what happens.
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Post by enigmas on Sept 5, 2011 8:24:20 GMT
Very nice Warwick. That's quite a sophisticed rear end and I'm not talking about my spouse! The 4/44 rack is the same as an early MG Magnette rack.
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Post by Warwick on Sept 5, 2011 10:46:27 GMT
It had its problems Vince - so I changed it all. I probably should leave it at this point and let everyone get back to admiring Redsunbeam's new engine.
I might post something in the other makes section soon.
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Post by redsunbeam on Sept 15, 2011 13:43:07 GMT
Radiator mounts have been made and stuck on, Whilst waiting for the gearbox oil cooler and some other bits to come i got distracted and bought these, They need abit of work but they should look ok. They dont fit on the rover rear axle but will fit on the Jensen one so that swap may have to come forward in the plans.
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Post by redsunbeam on Sept 17, 2011 14:38:41 GMT
They look like this when they are on, The transmission oil cooler, header tank and remote oil filter head are here, just wating for a short splined shaft for the steering column and then i can get going again. The wheels were needed to allow the steering arms to be modified so i can increase the ackerman angle. ( thats how i justified buying them ;D )
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2011 19:15:43 GMT
I've got to ask this but please don't think I'm denigrating the superb work you've already done on your car.
What is the main incentive for taking an elderly classic car and completely altering it so that it doesn't resemble the car it was originally built as with all the quirks and period features of 40/50 years ago?
Isn't that the whole point of owning an old car?
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