percy
Rover Rookie
Posts: 72
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Post by percy on Feb 20, 2022 20:31:06 GMT
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percy
Rover Rookie
Posts: 72
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Post by percy on Feb 20, 2022 20:41:48 GMT
Excellent work to provide front end stability. Such work involving cutting and welding the arms would need declaration to the insurers in the UK and might open a can of worms in respect of the strength and quality of the modification. I don't doubt for a moment your proficiency but I suspect you are the first to go this far!
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Post by enigmas on Feb 20, 2022 20:53:58 GMT
The last set I modified are on my coupe (28 years and 300,000 kms ago) Percy.
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Post by Sam Bee on Feb 20, 2022 21:10:53 GMT
I agree with Percy about proving raodworthiness to the British authorities. At the very least independent ultrasonic testing would seem necessary. At least the spacers were a manufaturers approved modification, and easily reversable.
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Post by enigmas on Feb 21, 2022 3:46:40 GMT
Sam, who checks the structural integrity of any body welds with regard to sills and box sections that may comprise the structural integrity of the car's monocoque? Who checks that the steel for the part is of the correct gauge for the intended use? How many panel beaters bog straight over rotted structural areas to pass on a car quickly. Is every component that gets rebuilt/reconditioned subject to an engineer's report? Perhaps it should be, because it may explode, jamb, lockup, seize or do some unforeseen thing. We don't have to go far to evidence examples of this. Individuals either do or don't...these qualities are aspects of human nature.
What I post on this forum is purely for the interest of like minded individuals. In my experience I've found P5Bs to have incredibly vague steering at high speeds, some worse than others.
I'm not trying to promote anything...it's just what I do. Take it or leave it. I'm not looking for anyone's approval. If you want to fit spacer's between the wishbone, balljoints and rear pivots, that's fine by me. But as a remedy to add caster (in my view) it's in the bandaid category even from the Factory. As far as modifications go, it's up to every individual owner to meet the requirements of their particular regions or countries.
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Post by enigmas on Feb 21, 2022 7:34:59 GMT
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Post by Sam Bee on Feb 21, 2022 19:18:21 GMT
I antirely agree with your outlook on this. Just pointing out to others the pitfalls. One issue though, if body welding 'gives' then the car almost certainly will remain driveable but if a wishbone breaks it could be catastropic. Carry on the good work Enigmas.
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Post by enigmas on Feb 21, 2022 21:38:19 GMT
It's a matter of skill and ability Sam. Not everyone has the skills or ability. As previously stated, the first set I modified are still on my coupe after 300,000 kms and 28 years todate.
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Post by enigmas on Feb 22, 2022 7:30:14 GMT
PS Wishbone DoneSpent a few more hours prepping the passenger side wishbones and apart from a coat of paint they're done. Here's a few pix.
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Post by enigmas on Feb 23, 2022 5:00:58 GMT
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Post by Mike’S-a-loon on Feb 23, 2022 5:51:20 GMT
Bloody magnificent job, Vince!
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Post by enigmas on Feb 23, 2022 9:35:30 GMT
Of course Mike. 👍 They're made as though they were for my own P5.
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Post by enigmas on Feb 24, 2022 13:17:29 GMT
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boz
Rover Rookie
Posts: 12
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Post by boz on Feb 24, 2022 18:25:20 GMT
Great job of work Vince, and I agree with you all modification to cars, bikes, etc are for each individual owner to assess. You are very skilled, and work through the job very meticulous. Modding vehicle of all kinds have been going on since the first internal combustion engine, right up to modern F1 cars. What you are doing helps others and inspires, wouldn't it be a shame if we were all driving module T Ford's around? I think nowadays it's called vehicle development. Plus your my go to guy on the wolseley, Boz.
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Post by enigmas on Feb 24, 2022 21:54:09 GMT
Kind words Boz (David). My efforts are not about hot-rodding the car, moreso about sorting a handling issue that was largely left unattended by the Factory as a 1950s car evolved into the early 1970s. As you're aware, some more performance focused enthusiasts go to the extreme of fitting an entirely different front suspension system/clip to the car, either completely fabricated or adapted.
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Post by Mike’S-a-loon on Feb 25, 2022 1:50:05 GMT
Absolutely. It was interesting driving the car through December, with the power steering fully functional and the brand new tyres, also having not driven it for so long: it felt very difficult to position on the road on windy narrow roads, the straight line directionality on the freeway was terrible, it seemed very prone to drifting around in crosswinds, etc. Reducing the front tyre pressure a bit helped.
Now before anyone jumps on me about the inherent issues with old cars, old designs, loving them for what they are, etc, etc, I know all of this very well, but frankly on modern roads under modern conditions this felt like an accident waiting to happen.
I have some familiarity with suspension design and the effects that various setups have on these things through racing radio controlled cars for many years, where the highly adjustable suspension setups and competitive racing makes for a steep learning curve. Proper RC cars are a miniature race car, and all of the same principles apply. When Vince told me he was able to add 3 degrees of caster at the front, I immediately saw that this was a no-brainer in terms of improving the stability of the car.
I have read and noted some of the comments concerning roadworthiness, and I understand why. Indeed, many jurisdictions would absolutely not condone this type of modification. I assumed that these arms were cast iron and very dangerous and tricky to weld, but Vince has educated me that these are not cast iron but steel, and that MIG welding them is very strong and robust.
I echo Vinces "don't try this at home, but here's how I do it" message. This type of upgrade isn't to everyone's taste or comfort level, but my car has to travel on all roads in all weather every day, and I have a high degree of faith that Vinces careful and considered work here will be invaluable to my safety well into the future.
Thanks, mate. It's a bloody excellent job.
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Post by enigmas on Feb 25, 2022 7:12:05 GMT
Time for a HiatusI finished fitting the 3° positive caster top wishbones today. Removing and replacing them should be a straight forward and easy task, taking no more than 3/4 hour each side. Stuff that causes drama when removing the wishbones:1. Seized Metalastic Bushes. No one bothered to coat the internal steel space with copper grease or similar when they were first fitted at the factory. This was not the case with Winston this time, but given the evidence of a hacksaw cut line on the spigot, a couple of the original bushes had obviously seized in the past. 2. The front wishbone on each side cannot be removed because the inner guard near the wishbone pivot interferes with its removal. There is no issue with the rear wishbones on either side. The Fix.Bend, grind, file or bash physically with a hammer a portion of the lower lip to obtain adequate clearance. Do it once and it is no longer an issue next time. This small fix will save a lot of aggravation and time. Observations. When driving the car the power steering feels exactly the same but with the obvious difference being that as the road speed increases the car does not have an inclination to wander. Now straight ahead directional stability improves as the speed increases. 👍 Interestingly, if still more caster was desired "factory style spacers" can still be fitted adding perhaps another 1.5°. This would then total around 4.5° positive caster per side. Chevy Camaros (performance cars) of the 1970s had around 6° of positive caster built into their front suspensions as do MGBs. Here are a few pix of the fitted wishbones. The assymetry is obvious in the last image. Issues with trying to remove the DS wishbone. Note the new radius on the inner guard just above the wishbone pivot. Similarly here on the PS side. The passenger side. The DS wishbones in place note the assymetry. I'll be taking a break from fettling Winston as I both need a rest and to focus on other distractions for a while. ie house repairs.
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Post by enigmas on Feb 25, 2022 13:29:38 GMT
Addendum A Few Notes & Considerations for Adding Additional Positive Caster to a Factory standard P5.These drawings are simply provided for consideration. Dimensions are listed but please check them for yourself and do not necessarily rely on those given.
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Post by Sam Bee on Feb 25, 2022 20:36:30 GMT
Here is mine, made up as per enigmas's drawing.
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Post by enigmas on Feb 27, 2022 3:38:57 GMT
Factory style Caster Spacers. A consideration with the caster spacers is that the thicker the spacers get beyond a 1/4", the further out the rear most wishbone stop on both sides (PS & DS) is moved away from the it's limiting rubber buffer stopper.
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Post by Sam Bee on Feb 27, 2022 12:24:25 GMT
The other problem, and very real with this critical component, is that a spacer more than 1/4" thick would not allow all threads on a full securing nut to be on the stud protruding from the top ball joint housing. As you can make out from my photo.
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Post by enigmas on Feb 27, 2022 13:04:18 GMT
You could get around those issues Sam by reducing the outside width of the rear wishbone pivot by an 1/8", using modern synthetic bushes with a thinner hat (flange face) and even modifying the securing bolt so that it doubles as both the bush sleeve and a securing fixture. Similarly for the top ball joint, machine up a tube type nut that passes through the spacer and wishbone holes to access adequate thread engagement. Whatever is done, you really need at least 3/8" to produce a noticeable difference. Synthetic suspension bush link. www.nolathane.com.au/catsize_bush.php
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Post by Sam Bee on Mar 1, 2022 20:10:33 GMT
Thanks for those suggestions.
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Post by enigmas on Mar 2, 2022 9:25:04 GMT
3° Positive Caster WishbonesThe wishbones pictured are on my P5 coupe...just doing some maintenance. They've been in use on the car for close on 28 years. The front suspension (ball joints) have received periodic maintenance. A few thoughts on Caster. When pressing in the front suspension rear wishbone bushes consider offsetting them rather than having them fitted so that they are centred. The bush overlap at each end appears to be about 1/8". Offsetting this 1/8" may gain 1° in positive caster. Adding 1/4" (factory style ) spacer plates may add another 1 1/2° to this again. These are small increments, but they all add up...perhaps gaining 2 1/2° of positive caster. Attention to detail can make a difference.
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Post by Mike’S-a-loon on Dec 3, 2022 6:14:46 GMT
Thomas, this comment should bump the blog to the top of the "recent" list!
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