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Post by Ken Nelson on May 24, 2020 19:29:42 GMT
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Post by enigmas on May 24, 2020 23:06:53 GMT
Hi Ken, the plugs should definitely not sit 'proud' of the face! As they've been rebuilt using the original cups...if anything they will sit (screw down) slightly further into the ball joint housing.
There should only be 2 - 3 components within the ball joint when correctly rebuilt IIRC, i.e., the plastic/synthetic seats and a steel (slightly cupped) washer. Are these pieces fitted correctly or is the steel washer flipped over? Don't mix and match parts keep the same pieces/sets from each balljoint together. Lastly no need to overfill the joint with grease...simply smear a good quality tacky EP grease over the ball and refit the components.
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Post by Ken Nelson on May 25, 2020 1:04:30 GMT
Thanks Vince. Yes, I did put everything back using the same components with the steel washer in the correct position. I think I simply put too much grease in the bottom of the joint and it is not squeezing out as I would have thought. I didn't peen the plugs over yet until hearing back from you, so tomorrow I'll open them up again and remove some of the grease to get the plugs to fit properly again.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on May 25, 2020 9:14:33 GMT
I did my joints a couple of weeks ago put plenty of grease in an screwed them back together the surplus grease finds it's way out, I found that just past the original or the original locking point was ok the joints were not sloppy just needed a slight bit of effort to get them moving, It sounds like you haven't got the plastic plugs correct Ken?
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Post by Sam Bee on May 25, 2020 11:02:11 GMT
The bottom plastic piece needs to be turned until the lugs on it slip into the housings in the casting.
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Post by Ken Nelson on May 25, 2020 18:36:53 GMT
Oh boy! What a difference that makes! I forgot all about those lugs, and slathered up with grease I didn't even see them. Yes, yes, and yes again, NOW it feels exactly like a ball joint should. The plug indeed threads in just slightly further than it did before and the joints moves firmly, but with good smooth motion. As Tiny Tim would undoubtedly have said in a time like this, "God Bless Us All (the Forum), Everyone!" Thanks Vince and Sam.
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Post by Ken Nelson on May 31, 2020 20:03:34 GMT
OK Mates, now my next problem is getting the lower control arm back on the front of the torsion bar. The leaves of the torsion bar have spread apart and don't want to "square up" to get the arm back on them. I'm trying to clamp and compress them together into a proper square end, but I'm not sure what kind of tool I can use with enough force to square them completely. See picture. Anyone have ideas or a voice of wisdom?? Attachments:
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Post by enigmas on May 31, 2020 23:53:02 GMT
A good sized G clamp should suffice Ken but having said that I locked both my 2 leaf spring packs in a vice and wrapped 1/8" x 1/2" steel strap around each spring pack end then welded the joins together. If you've got access to both a MIG and oxy/acetylene set it's quite a straight forward task.
Either way you need to have the front of the car jacked up very high (floor jack under the front cross member at centre position) so that you can easily fit the lower suspension arm on without having to twist the spring pack. Then you drop/lower the front of the car. (small jack or blocks under the lower suspension arm close to the large ball joint end) This method works well for me having used this procedure numerous times.
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jun 1, 2020 0:23:20 GMT
Thanks Vince. I do have it jacked up high enough, but a G clamp doesn't seem strong enough to compress fully. The TB is still attached at the rear end in the car, so I can't get it to a vice, but I'll figure out or make something with more force to make it work somehow. Answers next when I finally succeed.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 1, 2020 8:07:58 GMT
Thanks Vince. I do have it jacked up high enough, but a G clamp doesn't seem strong enough to compress fully. The TB is still attached at the rear end in the car, so I can't get it to a vice, but I'll figure out or make something with more force to make it work somehow. Answers next when I finally succeed. Ken I would remove the rear adjuster and do the front first this works for me, are the torsion bars stuck/rusted in the adjusters?
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jun 1, 2020 20:14:11 GMT
Yes John, they are rusted pretty solid in the rear adjuster. I just found this square tube clamp on the internet that looks like it might work for me. It is 1-1/2" square and to clamp onto a 1-1/2" square tube. The torsion bar when compressed measures 1-3/8" each side. I ordered it and will try it when it arrives and report. It looks strong enough that I might be able to make the leaves line up in it and then slip the control arm on and remove this after. I'd rather not remove the rear of the bar unless I am really forced to, due to the limited working space and the force I think it would need to get freed up. Attachments:
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 1, 2020 20:50:19 GMT
Yes John, they are rusted pretty solid in the rear adjuster. I just found this square tube clamp on the internet that looks like it might work for me. It is 1-1/2" square and to clamp onto a 1-1/2" square tube. The torsion bar when compressed measures 1-3/8" each side. I ordered it and will try it when it arrives and report. It looks strong enough that I might be able to make the leaves line up in it and then slip the control arm on and remove this after. I'd rather not remove the rear of the bar unless I am really forced to, due to the limited working space and the force I think it would need to get freed up. I know it's a pain but removing the adjuster and greasing the leaves is the way to go the leaves will fall into place better, if you do go this route make sure you mark the leaves and put them back in the same order and direction! they are also left and right handed
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Post by enigmas on Jun 1, 2020 23:14:55 GMT
OK Mates, now my next problem is getting the lower control arm back on the front of the torsion bar. The leaves of the torsion bar have spread apart and don't want to "square up" to get the arm back on them. I'm trying to clamp and compress them together into a proper square end, but I'm not sure what kind of tool I can use with enough force to square them completely. See picture. Anyone have ideas or a voice of wisdom?? Looking at the image of the leaf spring pack you posted Ken, I can't understand why the spring pack should have lozenged! Have the individual leaves been shuffled in their arrangement at all. The bars do take a set over time but the ends should remain square if the assembly has not been touched!? From what I can see...you need to lock/compress the leaf pack in both planes. Your current endeavours are only focused on one plane. *Clamp the spring pack together first. *Use 2 pieces of 3/8 x 1" steel strap cut to size with 2 5/16" high tensile bolts. *Drill the holes in the strap so the the bolts pass through at the precise width of the leafs. You might require 2 of these in the one plane. (Flat sides first) *Now use another set of clamps as outlined above and tighten this to pull the lozenged end square.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 2, 2020 8:17:22 GMT
The trouble is Vince the leaves are basically welded at the rear by rust which is not helping! It isn't that big a deal to remove the torsion bar with the adjuster at this stage, the adjuster may need a soak in diesel for a while and a tap or few with a hammer to remove it. The Adjuster has a disk which is held in by a large Circlip I assume this was to enable removal of the bars but you wont get that out until the adjuster is removed. As long as once the torsion bar is removed the leaves are marked in some way (I hacksawed a "V" on the end of mine) so they go back in the same place and direction. A good wiz over with a rotary wire brush and loads of grease will last for "years". Greasy Torsion bars are happy Torsion Bars I removed both of mine a couple of months ago when doing a front end service they were still nice and greasy and went back no problem.
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Post by enigmas on Jun 2, 2020 13:29:52 GMT
As an aside John, I've never understood why the Rover company went with this very unusual front suspension design. What do you believe are the inherent advantages (if any) of using a leaf spring pack in torsion...and does greasing the individual leafs (apart from the obvious corrosion protection) really make any difference to the function of the leafs when in torsion? Finally if did, shouldn't there be a service interval for regreasing?
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Post by barryr on Jun 2, 2020 14:22:29 GMT
On my car one side was exactly the same. I used a g cramp and cable ties to hold it square before belting the lower arm back on. I recall I may have cleaned a slight chamfer on the edges with a file also to get me started. If Ken's adjuster is stuck like mine was I can say I have not noted any issues from not being able to fully split and grease that torsion pack .
It's just irritating not to have done the whole job so to speak!
I also wish I'd stripped the balljoints but that's a lesson learned too!
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jun 2, 2020 16:30:54 GMT
Thanks for all the replies and comments John, Vince, and Barry! I don't know why the leaves have lozenged either Vince, but the rear end is tight in the adjuster. The leaves are all in order and have not been taken apart. I think John is correct that the leaves are "welded" in place by rust at the back. At the adjuster end I'm pretty sure it would require extensive hammering to get the TB leaves to slide forward out of the adjuster. Then the adjuster piece looks like it has to slide sideways toward the middle of the car to be taken out. The welded frame bracket that the vertical adjuster bolt goes through would prevent pulling the adjuster rearward to remove. And my locking bolt for the adjuster lever is frozen in place. I can remove the nut, and even twist the adjust up and down now, but cannot drive the locking bolt forward and out. So presently I can't remove the adjuster lever even if the TB would be removed fully. So I'd rather avoid that whole mess if possible. I think Vince is right about using two 3/8" steel bars with 5/16" bolts to undo the "lozenging" of the bars. Thinner steel isn't strong enough and finally bends. I appreciate the comments and advice from you all, and wilI keep an ongoing update with my next endeavors. Thanks again!
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Post by Sam Bee on Jun 2, 2020 18:09:48 GMT
The only way I could free both my adjusters was with a 5ft crowbar and a sledge hammer, and soaking in PlusGas. And that was with the subframe out, no chance with it under the car.
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jun 2, 2020 22:08:52 GMT
Good to know! And confirms my suspicion that I don't want to mess with this part at all if possible! Thanks.
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Post by enigmas on Jun 2, 2020 22:46:12 GMT
Goodness guys...the severe winters of the UK & certain regions of North America seems to play havoc with the torsion bar leafs in their housings. My car originally came from Sydney where the climate is more temperate and similar to that of California where the heat takes more of a toll on a car's paint and interior than corrosion in general.
Ken when you finally get the suspension together again, I'd regularly dose the spring pack (where it enters housings at both ends) with WD40 or similar to unfreeze the spring pack ends. The dynamic action of the twisting leafs during suspension movement should assist this process over time.
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jun 2, 2020 23:42:32 GMT
Thanks Vince, I've already been doing that at the back. The 1-1/2" square clamp I bought just arrived and I think I'll be in business now. Pics below. The leaves are pretty squared off now, but I've still had to grind them down a bit to form a taper and I was just able to get the lower arm started on the bar. I'm going to grind a bit more before I start smashing it fully on. Yeah, our winters are not especially good to raw steel. But I think I'm on my way soon!
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Post by enigmas on Jun 3, 2020 1:18:59 GMT
Looks good Ken. That's exactly what I've done to the leaf packs on my car but I've got welded bands on both ends for easy removal and replacement of the complete packs on either side.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 3, 2020 7:50:01 GMT
As an aside John, I've never understood why the Rover company went with this very unusual front suspension design. What do you believe are the inherent advantages (if any) of using a leaf spring pack in torsion...and does greasing the individual leafs (apart from the obvious corrosion protection) really make any difference to the function of the leafs when in torsion? Finally if did, shouldn't there be a service interval for regreasing? Sorry missed the question Vince, I followed the service manual its says fill the gaiters with grease so I assumes there is a reason not just to prevent rust? we grease the rear spring leaves so why not I suppose, certainly both end fixing should be greased for ease of maintenance. I had no alignment problems doing mine the slipped in both ends easily.
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Post by djm16 on Jun 3, 2020 10:57:30 GMT
I can think of two reasons for greasing the springs besides corrosion resistance. First, they will not squeak. A squeak would be most un-Roverlike. second, the progression of body roll will be smoother, with no saw-tooth jarring as body roll increases around a corner or spring compression occurs over a bump.
So why a torsion bar? IMHO the following apply:
1) it is more compact than a cart-spring. 2) unlike coil overs, or the coils on a P4, it is easily adjustable for road height as the springs age. 3) it has an element of built in damping. 4) someone else may correct me if I am wrong, but I think the spring adds to the stiffness of the lower link arm in much the same way as does the radius rod.
BTW, Morris Minors had torsion bars before ever Rover did.
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jun 3, 2020 11:13:55 GMT
I had a seized up adjuster on a P5 I was breaking. There was no clearance to pull it out from the rear. This was no problem however when I ultimately removed the body from the subframe.
Removal of the adjuster took some doing with big hammers and in the end I removed the circlip and cover disk and drifted it out from the end.
There was actually little rust on this end but a lot of grit was in the leaves along its whole length stuck in the grease. It is this grit that makes full reassembly difficult - if the leaves are clean and greased they fit back in the housings easily
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