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Post by enigmas on Jun 3, 2020 13:10:48 GMT
I can think of two reasons for greasing the springs besides corrosion resistance. First, they will not squeak. A squeak would be most un-Roverlike. second, the progression of body roll will be smoother, with no saw-tooth jarring as body roll increases around a corner or spring compression occurs over a bump. So why a torsion bar? IMHO the following apply: 1) it is more compact than a cart-spring. 2) unlike coil overs, or the coils on a P4, it is easily adjustable for road height as the springs age. 3) it has an element of built in damping. 4) someone else may correct me if I am wrong, but I think the spring adds to the stiffness of the lower link arm in much the same way as does the radius rod. BTW, Morris Minors had torsion bars before ever Rover did. David I have no gripe with torsion bars as such...but torsion bars used on most vehicles that I have knowledge of are usually constructed from round section spring steel (Eg. Chryslers, Valiants, Jaguar E types, etc.) My query to John had more to do with why Rover used leaf springs in torsion. This is kind of an unusual use for a leaf spring. Not only that, but it also adds a weight penalty and added complexity to the car. My question still remains....what is the advantage of using a leaf spring in torsion? Truly I can't see any! As for the front suspension components...they truly are built for a truck or perhaps a Bentley, if you recall Ettore Bugatti's comment in relation to W.O Bentley's racing cars..."the fastest lorry in the world!"
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jun 3, 2020 16:48:26 GMT
Interesting replies from Phil, John, Vince, Sam, and djm16. I think the use of torsion bars also had to do with space-saving? I read that the MGC used torsion bars for this reason. My Riley RME uses them as well. Using gaiters and greasing the rear spring leaves and TB leaves has always seemed a bit of British overkill to me, having grown up with leaf spring cars in the USA. I don't believe I've ever seen gaiters and grease used on post WWII American cars. I'm sure it can help somewhat to smooth the ride and prevent wear but I've never encountered problems without it. My 16 year old Jeep Cherokee still has no squeaky or broken springs, although more than a bit of rust, from the same salt corrosion my Rover TB's have suffered from to seize them in their adjusters. I have scraped and cleaned the grit out from between the bars though.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 3, 2020 17:25:18 GMT
Vince I think we are dealing with 1958 design probably a few years in the designing to get it that far, as to the advantages/disadvantages of leaf torsion bars the design engineer probably knew sadly we cant ask him!
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Post by Sam Bee on Jun 3, 2020 21:58:36 GMT
My turn to ask a question. I have cleaned up all the front suspension and steering parts and started painting them. But the stub axles, steering levers attached to them and the lower links appear never to have had any paint on them, not even trapped in the cast-in raised lettering. So did they leave the factory unpainted, can anyone tell me?
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Post by enigmas on Jun 3, 2020 23:23:05 GMT
John you're most likely on the money there with your reply. I'd be fascinated in reading any technical rationale from that time forgotten unacknowledged Rover suspension engineer.
Sam...I'm with you on your query....although I paint the suspension pieces on my coupe, I've not seen any evidence of Factory paint on the front suspension pieces either.
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 4, 2020 8:13:57 GMT
My turn to ask a question. I have cleaned up all the front suspension and steering parts and started painting them. But the stub axles, steering levers attached to them and the lower links appear never to have had any paint on them, not even trapped in the cast-in raised lettering. So did they leave the factory unpainted, can anyone tell me? Did any manufacturer paint the steering assembly? I remember getting Quinten Hazel joints they were unpainted! the master cylinder was unpainted as wasn't the cylinder on the servo it was considered important I suppose?
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Post by Sam Bee on Jun 4, 2020 11:18:20 GMT
Thanks chaps. In that case I shall leave as nature intended (remember that phrase?). Saves some awkward masking up too.
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jun 4, 2020 20:30:20 GMT
OK, I have finally been able to get the lower control arm started on the torsion bar. AND after soaking the rear adjuster in lube/penetrant and whacking on the bar a bit, the rear adjuster loosened up! I even got the locking bolt to free up. NOW I know what you guys mean when you say it's not hard to remove these bars. Once the welded on rust is freed up (and many of my welds aren't as strong as that stuff!), sure it's "easy"! Of course the bars are still frozen in the adjuster, but I'm leaving them alone. Now I can swivel the whole lower link up and down freely. I just need to get the radius arm put in place as I raise the lower arm and torsion bar. It's incredible what 6 months worth of banging around and trying to figure it all out can do!
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jun 6, 2020 16:09:56 GMT
Well, perhaps my jubilation was just a bit early. I now have to get the radius arm connected to the lower link and am having trouble lining it up to get the TB and radius arm both inserted together. I have been trying to push the lower link onto the TB at the same time I insert the front of the radius arm into the bush on the lower link, but there is too much twisting tension on the TB to line it all up and mount the TB into the lower link correctly. I am doing this before attaching the lower link mounting bracket (#17 in the manual) to the subframe. I don't know if this is the correct sequence, but all the pictures that Barry posted in Jan-Feb 2015 on the forum are unavailable. Barry could you send me a copy of those pictures or repost them along with any advice from anyone on proper sequence of assembly? Thanks in advance!
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 6, 2020 17:44:23 GMT
Well, perhaps my jubilation was just a bit early. I now have to get the radius arm connected to the lower link and am having trouble lining it up to get the TB and radius arm both inserted together. I have been trying to push the lower link onto the TB at the same time I insert the front of the radius arm into the bush on the lower link, but there is too much twisting tension on the TB to line it all up and mount the TB into the lower link correctly. I am doing this before attaching the lower link mounting bracket (#17 in the manual) to the subframe. I don't know if this is the correct sequence, but all the pictures that Barry posted in Jan-Feb 2015 on the forum are unavailable. Barry could you send me a copy of those pictures or repost them along with any advice from anyone on proper sequence of assembly? Thanks in advance! Doing it the way you are Ken mind you don't bend the Link Rods! I have always removed the rear adjuster Ken and I know you don't want to go that route, I am sure Barry will help
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jun 6, 2020 18:22:28 GMT
Thanks John. I hope so, because it is a b***er of a job! I'm almost wondering if there isn't some way to cut a piece out of the radius rod tube and make up something to expand it again after putting it in place, like with a threaded rod down the middle and welded in place in each end of the rod?
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 6, 2020 18:56:09 GMT
I know what you are fighting Ken it can be done the way you are trying I have distant memories from "many" years ago doing the same thing
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jun 8, 2020 21:38:34 GMT
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Post by Phil Nottingham on Jun 9, 2020 7:42:55 GMT
The condition of those cupped radius rod washers is critical. If they are split, rusty or bent they will soon cut up the rubber as this is compressed quite a lot and modern rubber compounds cannot seem to cope as well as the original
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Post by johnwp5bcoupe on Jun 9, 2020 14:52:11 GMT
Your having a good time Ken I still would have taken the time and effort to remove the rusted rear adjusters it would make the next time you need to do some work so much easier But good luck and well done sticking with the problem and a Phil says watch the cup washers and rubbers.
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jun 16, 2020 23:02:08 GMT
OK, now where was I last time I was having fun? Ah, yes, I had just put the radius arm into the lower link and attached to the torsion bar. Since then I have managed (with much difficulty) to get the cupped washers back on correctly and the nuts on the radius rod. I cut a wedge out of 2 washers and tacked them together after placing them inside the front RR bushing, since I forgot the washer when first assembled. Then with the use of a liberal dosing of acetylene I actually freed up the adjusting arm at the rear and removed the trunnion bolt and the locking bolt, and cleaned and painted them all. Now I started putting the adjuster back together but am having difficulty with the locking bolt. I can insert it in the subframe from the front, but can't properly get a wrench on the head of the bolt to keep it from turning whilst I do up the nut on the backside of the subframe support. In fact, I realize that if the bolt wasn't initially frozen solidly in place, I'd have had to cut it out when removing it. Rover had either a very strict accountant or a devil of an engineer when they designed this arrangement to be almost impossible to remove and refurbish. With the torsion bar in the rear adjuster arm (I still refuse to go to the major effort to remove it from there) there really isn't even enough room to insert a deep socket through the crossmember onto the head of the locking bolt. I'm going to buy a new, clean bolt so I can start it with my fingers easily, but why couldn't Rover had made the access hole just a bit bigger?! Then I have to put the stub axle back on with the front ball joints and tie rod TREs. Then to figure out the connections for the 'new' Volvo steering box and hope it works well.
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jun 16, 2020 23:07:03 GMT
OK, now where was I last time I was having fun? Ah, yes, I had just put the radius arm into the lower link and attached to the torsion bar. Since then I have managed (with much difficulty) to get the cupped washers back on correctly and the rubber mounts and nuts on the radius rod. I cut a wedge out of 2 washers and tacked them together after placing them inside the front RR bushing, since I forgot the washer when first assembled. Then with the use of a liberal dosing of acetylene I actually freed up the adjusting arm at the rear and removed the trunnion bolt and the locking bolt, and cleaned and painted them all. Now I started putting the adjuster back together but am having difficulty with the locking bolt. I can insert it in the subframe from the front, but can't properly get a wrench on the head of the bolt to keep it from turning whilst I do up the nut on the backside of the subframe support. In fact, I realize that if the bolt wasn't initially frozen solidly in place, I'd have had to cut it out to remove it. Rover had either a very strict accountant or a devil of an engineer when they designed this arrangement to be almost impossible to remove and refurbish. With the torsion bar in the rear adjuster arm (I still refuse to go to the major effort to remove it from there) there really isn't even enough room to insert a deep socket through the crossmember onto the head of the locking bolt. I'm going to buy a new, clean bolt so I can start it with my fingers easily, but why couldn't Rover had made the access hole just a bit bigger?! Then I have to put the stub axle back on with the front ball joints and tie rod TREs. Then to figure out the connections for the 'new' Volvo steering box and hope it works well.
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jun 18, 2020 16:43:26 GMT
For the locking bolt on the rear adjuster arm I worked out an un-orthodox approach to overcome the problem getting a socket inside the cross member. I used a 5-1/2" long bolt threaded for 2" to push through from the front to back of subframe. I put a nut and washer on first to stop the bolt inside frame, and then used a locking nut at the end. It avoids worrying about whether a socket can fit on the front end. There hasn't been anything easy about doing this job, and could have been greatly helped originally with a bolt on rear radius rod mount and a bigger cutout at the rear adjuster for a socket to fit. But I am slowly getting there! Ken
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Post by 3litrekiwi on Jun 18, 2020 21:37:24 GMT
Hi Ken, looks like a pragmatic solution to the problem. I have not had the bolts out of mine, I adjusted the ride height to lift the front up to within the specified limits when I did a basic wheel alignment to get the toe in more or less correct. My car is stored a few miles away at my mothers house so I can't confirm this today but I did manage to loosen and tighten this bolt with a socket. I wonder whether the original bolts have an under size hex so a smaller socket fits? Next time I bring the car home I will check this as although I recall some frustration doing the adjustment it was possible. I guess this is a moot point now you have resolved the issue but it would be interesting to know.
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Post by Roy of the Rovers on Jun 19, 2020 15:06:14 GMT
My turn to ask a question. I have cleaned up all the front suspension and steering parts and started painting them. But the stub axles, steering levers attached to them and the lower links appear never to have had any paint on them, not even trapped in the cast-in raised lettering. So did they leave the factory unpainted, can anyone tell me? Hi Sam, I have a pair of new old stock stub axles here. No paint but they do have a very thick hard coating of what looks like dried out grease completely encasing them. Roy
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Post by Sam Bee on Jun 25, 2020 16:34:48 GMT
I shall revert to the theme of top and bottom ball joints. All very well setting the tightness by how they feel so I did mention coming up with a way of measuring the force required to move them so they can all be set equal - as per sound practice. Today I took a short length of 22 mm central heating copper pipe, which fits nicely over the ball joint pins to form a lever, then cut a groove in it exactly 12 inches from the casting. With the casting held in a vice with the pin vertically upwards I used a Salter spring balance (used to set P6 front hubs 'by the book') applied at the groove on the pipe and pulled, noting the force required to move the pin. Repeated this to check for accuracy. All mine are now set at 12 ft.ibs. Using the pipe it is easier to judge the tightness and smoothness of the joint by hand, I found. Then only tiny movements of the brass plug made quite a difference so patience needed. Whether this setting is absolutely correct only time will tell but at least my four are all set the same.
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Post by djm16 on Jun 26, 2020 0:02:33 GMT
Wow! and I thought I could be obsessive.
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Post by Sam Bee on Jun 26, 2020 8:21:26 GMT
Don't know about obsessive, just applying good practice learnt from many years in heritage related engineering workshops.
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Post by stirlingmg on Jun 28, 2020 9:30:21 GMT
Hi Sam, I have a pair of new old stock stub axles here. No paint but they do have a very thick hard coating of what looks like dried out grease completely encasing them. Roy That’ll be lanolin, lots of stuff particularly things like stubs & other cast/forged components used to come dipped in it. You never see that now, if you’re lucky it’s wrapped in that crinkly brown sticky paper
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Post by Ken Nelson on Jun 29, 2020 23:09:30 GMT
OK, I just finished putting the Left-side top and bottom ball joints and stub axle together again on the car for the first time in 6 months. I didn't measure the foot-pounds of tightness to turn it, but while firm, I can still swivel it by hand on the axle only, so I think I'll be good to go. Attachments:
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